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For the love of English 3 speeds...

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For the love of English 3 speeds...

Old 10-22-18, 11:12 AM
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Autumn Leaves and Terrible Headwinds

Here are some images from my ride yesterday on the Sakatah Singing Hills Trail in Faribault, MN.



I meant to get out and photograph our beautiful Autumn leaves, but I found that the combination of unseasonably cold weather and high winds has hastened the transition this year.



Many trees were already bare, and the trail was littered with yellow-colored leaves.



And that wind! You can see by the surface of the lake here that the water was being whipped up by the constant 15-20mph gusts.



Although I meant to ride the entire length of this trail and return, I only managed about 15 miles fighting that headwind before I decided to turn back. At least I enjoyed the tailwind on the return leg.

In other news, a new project is coming my way. I've agreed to buy this 1949 Raleigh Clubman frameset from a good friend of mine, and I'm sure it will prompt many questions for this group.



I can't wait to get started, but I won't take delivery until the first week in November. Stay tuned...

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Old 10-22-18, 12:10 PM
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This may not be the right thread for this idea. And it's more of a thought experiment than an idea.
There are lots of posts about how bad Walmart bikes are, and generalizing about other "big store" brands.
All of these bikes seem to imitate the best quality bikes around but do so with inferior materials, much heavier weight, and shoddy assembly, almost guaranteeing a bad biking experience.
I know that this isn't something Walmart would ever do, but it seems to me that:
The design and technology and parts for them to sell a duplicate of an English 3-speed with the quality of a 1965 Raleigh should be well understood. I'm wondering if they have ever thought of doing something like that and how much it would actually cost and sell for. I know that Linus and others make something along that line: same frame style, 3 internal-hub gears, fenders, etc. Bikes like this are marketed as "retro", which implies to me that you have to give up ... something for the styling and lack of features like the 21 speeds. But if a Walmart bike can have all of the features (made with inferior quality and assembly) as real bicycles, would it be possible for them to make much simpler bikes but actually make them with some quality - and what would that cost?
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Old 10-22-18, 01:38 PM
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Originally Posted by mrMike88
This may not be the right thread for this idea. And it's more of a thought experiment than an idea.
There are lots of posts about how bad Walmart bikes are, and generalizing about other "big store" brands.
All of these bikes seem to imitate the best quality bikes around but do so with inferior materials, much heavier weight, and shoddy assembly, almost guaranteeing a bad biking experience.
I know that this isn't something Walmart would ever do, but it seems to me that:
The design and technology and parts for them to sell a duplicate of an English 3-speed with the quality of a 1965 Raleigh should be well understood. I'm wondering if they have ever thought of doing something like that and how much it would actually cost and sell for. I know that Linus and others make something along that line: same frame style, 3 internal-hub gears, fenders, etc. Bikes like this are marketed as "retro", which implies to me that you have to give up ... something for the styling and lack of features like the 21 speeds. But if a Walmart bike can have all of the features (made with inferior quality and assembly) as real bicycles, would it be possible for them to make much simpler bikes but actually make them with some quality - and what would that cost?
There are very few enthusiasts of old fashioned roadsters. It's a tiny market. The manufacturing processes used were outdated even by 1960s standards. There are a few companies like Pashley that have products that cater to that market, but they are very expensive. I'm afraid those days are gone, but luckily there's a large supply of relatively inexpensive vintage roadsters around to keep us busy for a long time.
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Old 10-22-18, 05:49 PM
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From a purely anglo perspective only. In the rest the world not so.

India moves on roadsters. Terrible ones that have chrome that falls off, screws with soft metal, they cost only £60 equivalent. This is transport of hundreds of millions today. In denmark the Raleigh Tourist sells today for a little less than £650, this is with drum brakes and a twist gearshift. And in holland every hardware shop sells basic steel roadsters with a coasterbrake For around £250, and makes good business doing it.

Once simple transport bikes have to be marketed to enthusiasts you know the society you're selling in has gone past the brink.
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Old 10-22-18, 06:47 PM
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Originally Posted by Cute Boy Horse
From a purely anglo perspective only. In the rest the world not so.

India moves on roadsters. Terrible ones that have chrome that falls off, screws with soft metal, they cost only £60 equivalent. This is transport of hundreds of millions today.

In denmark the Raleigh Tourist sells today for a little less than £650, this is with drum brakes and a twist gearshift. And in holland every hardware shop sells basic steel roadsters with a coasterbrake For around £250, and makes good business doing it.

Once simple transport bikes have to be marketed to enthusiasts you know the society you're selling in has gone past the brink.
Even from a colonial perpective

India has 1.3 billion people, many that live in poverty by first world standards. Roadsters are workbikes and must be cheap and can and will be fixed by shady tree mechanics found anywhere.

Denmark has one of the higher standards of living as a social democracy. It's a very flat country with decent average incomes and expensive transportation and other sin costs. It consists of 350 islands plus Jutland. Vikings now ride bikes on ferries.

Holland is likely the flatest country in the world, has an educated, social democratic society and are ruthlessly practical. Like my Dutch ex-wife .
The Netherlands was smart enough to reinforce it's domestic bike industry in the post war period, including a relationship with Raleigh. Cars were never going to be the primary mover of people. Trains, trams and bikes are the way to go when the population is mostly located in dense urban centres.

North America is like no other market. Buy what we make because you don't know what you want and you have excess capital or credit. Advertising and marketing will make your decisions easier for you. Extend yourself and buy everything you can becuase it makes jobs and floats all boats.

I for one think our nationalism is highly overrated. Wally World is the end of days.
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Old 10-22-18, 07:04 PM
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Originally Posted by clubman
Even from a colonial perpective
<Big Snip>
I for one think our nationalism is highly overrated. Wally World is the end of days.
But at least they let you sleep in your clapped-out car in their parking lot after your house gets foreclosed.

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Old 10-22-18, 09:51 PM
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The newer welded semi mountain bikes are cheap, reliable and have lots more than 3 speeds. They have replaced the traditional English roadster as utility bikes. At least here in America. It's as simple as that.
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Old 10-23-18, 08:13 AM
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I can't describe the cheap mountain bikes as reliable, or for that matter even acceptable to use. A good singlespeed can get me up the steep hills of my birthplace. Some 21 speed monster with plastic knobbly tyres? I have to get off and walk. Seeing others' bikes up close, they're only "reliable" in the sense that the owner doesn't care the wheels are buckled because the front brake is unhooked anyway, and squeaky brown chains are "normal".

They're absolute deathtraps and the only people I see ride them regularly are that particular segment of the working class that's too poor to ride the bus. I was one for a while. Maybe I should've borrowed a brand new Harley off our american counterparts.

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Old 10-23-18, 01:57 PM
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Originally Posted by BigChief
That's a Raleigh frame with the standard headset. Would love to see the whole bike. I still think that cup on yours was meant for a caged bearing, or perhaps larger bearings. When he went to assemble it with 5/32 bearings it was loose and his solution was to place another crown race on top, wedged into the oversized cup. But that leaves the joint exposed. This is exactly what happened to me with the Rudge. Fortunately, the caged bearings were in good shape, so I reused them. But I'm sure I could have also replaced the cups with Raleigh, used loose 5/32" bearings and still get away with using the threaded upper race and lock nut. What's on the upper end of your headset? Is it the same?
I've been out of town for a couple of days but will revisit this business tomorrow to see what's going on.
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Old 10-23-18, 02:50 PM
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My TDCross J model has 7 pieces although it assembles well with 6. The extra washer is to accomodate a slightly longer steerer.
The quality of the steel is different. Not chrome, maybe a cadmium plating.
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Old 10-23-18, 04:27 PM
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Originally Posted by gster
I've been out of town for a couple of days but will revisit this business tomorrow to see what's going on.
Looking forward to see if I called this one right or not. I can't imagine anyone would make a headset with the bearings exposed to rain and road sand like that. But...you never know.
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Old 10-23-18, 05:11 PM
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Originally Posted by BigChief
Looking forward to see if I called this one right or not. I can't imagine anyone would make a headset with the bearings exposed to rain and road sand like that. But...you never know.
Yes..
If indeed a pre Raleigh BSA (1957)the threads on the steering tube/BB will be 24.
I will test tomorrow.
If pre 1957 it could very well be as you suggest.
Always appreciate the input.
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Old 10-23-18, 05:47 PM
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Originally Posted by BigChief
Looking forward to see if I called this one right or not. I can't imagine anyone would make a headset with the bearings exposed to rain and road sand like that. But...you never know.
Yes..
If indeed a pre Raleigh BSA (1957)the threads on the steering tube/BB will be 24.
I will test tomorrow.
If pre 1957 it could very well be as you suggest.
Always appreciate the input.
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Old 10-23-18, 05:50 PM
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Interesting Bike
Listed as a 1940's Eatons Glider


Cottered Cranks indicate English built?
Bent peddle..
Raleigh?
$275.00 CDN.....
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Old 10-23-18, 07:31 PM
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Originally Posted by gster
Interesting Bike
Listed as a 1940's Eatons Glider


Cottered Cranks indicate English built?
Bent peddle..
Raleigh?
$275.00 CDN.....
I suspect this was made by CCM for Eatons. Very nice bike.
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Old 10-24-18, 05:14 AM
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Originally Posted by gster
Yes..
If indeed a pre Raleigh BSA (1957)the threads on the steering tube/BB will be 24.
I will test tomorrow.
If pre 1957 it could very well be as you suggest.
Always appreciate the input.
I tested the BSA steerer with some Raleigh parts and they would not thread on...
So obviously a pre Raleigh built bike.
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Old 10-24-18, 08:03 AM
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Originally Posted by gster
I tested the BSA steerer with some Raleigh parts and they would not thread on...
So obviously a pre Raleigh built bike.
Oh yes, in fact, I think I found your frameset and crank in this 1953 catalog from the VCC online library.

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Old 10-24-18, 08:22 AM
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Originally Posted by gster
Interesting Bike
Listed as a 1940's Eatons Glider

Cottered Cranks indicate English built?
Bent peddle..
Raleigh?
$275.00 CDN.....
Lovely. I had one just like it except it had twin top tube and upright bars. Huge frame that I couldn't ride. Not a CCM, they rarely, if ever used english 'hangers' and the forks are wrong. Nickel plate bars? Maybe earlier than 40's
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Old 10-24-18, 01:02 PM
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Not English, but cheap


https://easternshore.craigslist.org/...726012045.html
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Old 10-24-18, 01:55 PM
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Originally Posted by BigChief
Oh yes, in fact, I think I found your frameset and crank in this 1953 catalog from the VCC online library.

Hey! That's the bike!
More good detective work.
The frame has the same pump mounts.
"Inserted cup head races...."
Interesting to think of how many hands it's past through in the past 65 years...
And how it came to have a 1961 SA hub and a Dynohub up front.
The guy I got it from had just bought it a couple of weeks before.
He had too many bikes and wasn't going to bother with it.
A prime candidate for a Semi Scorcher!
Thanks
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Old 10-24-18, 05:58 PM
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Is someone familiar with these H.C. Webb brakes that came on my Huffy Sportsman? I don't quite see how the cable adjusters can work. They just go through an unthreaded hole made by bending over a tab of the brake arm, and as found, the nut was below the hole, and just tightened up against it. Am I missing parts, and does someone know of a diagram of these?
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Old 10-24-18, 06:52 PM
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Originally Posted by Ol Danl



Is someone familiar with these H.C. Webb brakes that came on my Huffy Sportsman? I don't quite see how the cable adjusters can work. They just go through an unthreaded hole made by bending over a tab of the brake arm, and as found, the nut was below the hole, and just tightened up against it. Am I missing parts, and does someone know of a diagram of these?
I suspect, when you attach the cable, the tension will keep the adjuster in place.
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Old 10-24-18, 07:09 PM
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The nut goes above the brake arm and cable tension keeps it all together. By screwing the nut down against the arm while keeping the barrel immobile you lengthen the cable housing relative to the inner wire, tightening up the brake.
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Old 10-24-18, 07:43 PM
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That's obviously the way calipers with threaded receptacles for the cable adjuster work -- but then the nut actually acts as a lock nut with the other threads. I'm just wondering if this one nut won't vibrate loose. Maybe it'll work.
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Old 10-25-18, 02:17 AM
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Originally Posted by Dan Burkhart
Here it is. Quite lengthy. I will try to edit it down a bit when I get a chance. Also don't have the closed captioning edited yet, so it will be the always comical voice to text version for now.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EvKyiajpTEo
Dan: That is a great video and clearly describes the process for dismantling and re-assembling the BSA Hub Gear, plus describing how it works, a great tool for those who come across these hubs, as you say there is a dearth of information on these hubs. I don't think you need to edit it down, it does the job perfectly as it is in my view, having recently dismantled one of these.
Best regards
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