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For the love of English 3 speeds...

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For the love of English 3 speeds...

Old 12-26-18, 04:36 PM
  #18926  
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1950 Raleigh Update

Hello all,
I've put together some photos. 1950 Raleigh with AG hub and lighting system relatively intact. I'm planning to disassemble down to the frame and service the hubs and bottom bracket. It has sat for decades. I'll use some product to bring out the luster in the paint and polish the chrome parts as I remove and catalogue them. Suggestions for the process are welcome. The 23 inch frame was a nice surprise and the colour is fantastic.

I'm not sure about the Cyclo derailleur - whether I want to keep it on or not. I've put together a list of items including a 22t cog and tires etc at Harris Cyclery. I've rubbed some proofhide onto the B66 but just a little. What do you recommend for it? All your thoughts and ideas are welcome. The rear tire is an original Dunlop. The front is a later Japanese brand. I was thinking the cream delta cruisers.




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Old 12-26-18, 04:44 PM
  #18927  
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1950 Raleigh




Originally Posted by Ged117 View Post
My earlier post on 1950 Raleigh
A few more photos:



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Old 12-26-18, 05:38 PM
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I LOVE this bike. Might take some time, but a 32H Raleigh pattern front wheel is a find-able item. That color is gorgeous. I think a light compounding and wax will clean it up nicely. I've never had a AG hub, so I don't know exactly what driver it had originally, but whatever it was it was swapped out for the Cyclo mod. I do know any pre 1952 driver would have been threaded, so you would need a suitable splined driver if you wanted to use a 22T splined cog. Personally, I'd try keeping the Cyclo. Great Bike!
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Old 12-26-18, 06:02 PM
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Also...More original grip information!! This is great. John Bull, I should have figured they made grips. I keep seeing these fat style grips on early 50s Sports. Original cloth covered cable housings too.
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Old 12-26-18, 06:55 PM
  #18930  
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Originally Posted by BigChief View Post
I LOVE this bike. Might take some time, but a 32H Raleigh pattern front wheel is a find-able item. That color is gorgeous. I think a light compounding and wax will clean it up nicely. I've never had a AG hub, so I don't know exactly what driver it had originally, but whatever it was it was swapped out for the Cyclo mod. I do know any pre 1952 driver would have been threaded, so you would need a suitable splined driver if you wanted to use a 22T splined cog. Personally, I'd try keeping the Cyclo. Great Bike!
Thanks for the tip about the driver. I'm new to vintage three speeds so I'm sponging up what I can. The front wheel is not an original. I thought so since it isn't stamped as the back one is. I suspect the original was damaged (probably when the headlamp was dented).
Who knows when - another mystery which makes old bicycles so interesting. I love the color too; the ad photos made it look black and when I saw it in person I was very pleased. This thread will help so much on this project. Thanks for the input.

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Old 12-26-18, 07:34 PM
  #18931  
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Good news. I found an exploded view of an AG hub with parts list. The driver is the same K507 as a regular AW hub. My 51 Rudge had a threaded driver and I replaced it with a splined one so I could change cogs. I used a 1950s straight legged driver, but for all I know, a later dog legged driver would have worked just as well. Now, I'm not sure the Cyclo kit came with a driver with a longer threaded section, but you would think it would. But in any case, a 1950 AG would have a K507 threaded driver. Here's the original driver from my Rudge with the cog and outer dust cover still in place. The other is the splined driver I replaced it with. Note...I had to rob an outer dust cover off another hub because I didn't want to hassle with getting the cog off the threaded driver.


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Old 12-26-18, 07:52 PM
  #18932  
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Personally, I'd do my best to get the Cyclo working. But if it turns out to be a pest, it looks like it would be easy to swap in a splined driver since it's the same as the AW part.

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Old 12-26-18, 07:58 PM
  #18933  
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On the 51, front wheel replaced, headlight damaged sounds like front end damage. I would check the fork for a push back.
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Old 12-26-18, 08:08 PM
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Thanks. I plan to get it all cleaned and running as is at this point. Since there are hills on my commute and in this area, I might as well keep the extra firepower. Plus it looks cool and is totally intact. Thanks for looking up the exploded view! That'll be handy for when I service the hub.

[QUOTE=3speedslow;20720065]
On the 51, front wheel replaced, headlight damaged sounds like front end damage. I would check the fork for a push back.
[/QUOTE

I checked and it looks good. The key won't turn in the fork lock. Perhaps it is seized or the key is wrong? How serious would that be? I'm excited to get to work on this. I think the Schwalbe Delta Cruisers in cream will match the paint nicely.
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Old 12-26-18, 09:31 PM
  #18935  
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+1 on keeping the Cyclo. I'd be very interested in hearing how to set it up and how it works. I think it's a very interesting feature. Looks like your original rear wheel has stainless steel spokes. I think that was a nice touch and it was a shame Raleigh changed to galvanized in later years.
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Old 12-26-18, 11:00 PM
  #18936  
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Originally Posted by Ged117 View Post




A few more photos:



Time capsule.
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Old 12-27-18, 01:51 AM
  #18937  
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>
Classic Lightweights UK
Restoration
[img][/img]

The Standard Cyclo

Author: Steve Griffith

The double-cable standard Cyclo with its helicoidal sliding action was probably the most widely used of all deraillers by cycle tourists and tandemists from the mid 30's until the early 50's. First made in France, the two-speed from 1924, three-speed from 1925. Changing requires very little effort, is silent, in short a joy compared to a plunger type mech. The only down sides are the weight and complexities of setting up.

The guide reproduced below from a pre-war Cyclo booklet should be followed in conjunction with the following points:

1. Types British made Standards were all for 1/8 chain and all steel. You can tell which one you have by the length of the smooth non-threaded part of the slide shaft:

2-speed 36mm 3-speed 44mm 4-speed 54mm

The 2-speed version is very useful for Sturmey conversions as the Cyclo will quite sweetly change over a very wide ratio say from 14 to 28 teeth.

French Cyclo made an alloy version for 3/32 in 3/4/5-speed.

For setting up the Oppy, a medium range deluxe (ie chromed 3-speed 1/8 version), the principle is the same except a smaller diameter lever /cable is used.

2. Dating; British Cyclo's have the year stamped at the top of the outside of the jockey arm.

3. Critical to good changing is chain length (the bottom jockey wheel should be 30mm away from the spring when in bottom gear) and position of mech on chainstay relative to large cog. Even with a braze on bracket there should
be some adjustment.

4. The most common problem when riding is cable breakage usually at the mech end. This is due to incorrect fitting. In top and bottom the cable nipple should be be above the 3 and 9 0'clock position on the drum.

5. Rear end adjusters are a good idea so that they wheel goes back exactly in the same position.

6. Maintenance: very simple apart from checking the cable position - oil on the sliding shaft. The mechs themselves are very durable.
Cyclo 2-speed gear (Universal type)
Cyclo 3-speed gear (braze-on fitting)
Cyclo 4-speed gear - new type with crossed cables
Old type had the cable wound once around pulley
7. Setting Up

1. The position of the mech on the chainstay is determined by the size of the large sprocket as shown on the diagram

2. Adjust the throw of the mech in the same way as any other plunger type mech, i.e. the top jockey wheel moves from under the centre of the large sprocket to centre of the small sprocket. Use a screwdriver to adjust the throw by turning the spindle . Once you have the correct position hold and tighten the spindle nut The position of the freewheel
can be adjusted by using a spacer behind it.

3. Fitting the cable fit at the gear end first keeping the milled ball on the left hand side. Secure the nipple in the groove on the pulley

4. Place gear lever in the furthest forward position and fit the cable using the adjusters to take up any slack For two and three speeds it is essential that in high and low the nipple does not move above the 3 and 9 o'clock positions. If it does it will put excessive strain on the cable and cause breakage. When the control, lever is vertical the cable nipple should
be at the bottom of the groove ( 6 o'clock position).

5. Fit the tension spring and finally the chain noting the length is determined by when it is on the highest sprocket it should be within 30mm of the spring.

NB Fitting the Cyclo Oppy is similar except it uses a lever with a smaller diameter barrel and thus a cable with less bare wire at either end.

[img][/img][img][/img]
2007 Classic Lightweights
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Old 12-27-18, 07:25 AM
  #18938  
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So, does the Cyclo make it a 9 speed bike?
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Old 12-27-18, 08:34 AM
  #18939  
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Originally Posted by gster View Post
So, does the Cyclo make it a 9 speed bike?
Sure does!, but considering the weight, I would bet most of the riding will be on the low cog. Looks to be around 22T. That would be nice. 24 even better IMO.
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Old 12-27-18, 09:17 AM
  #18940  
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Some may have noticed my thread on a 1952 Rudge Aero Special that I'm starting to dig into. On this or other 3 or 4 speed Sports or Clubmans, has anyone put a dual front chainwheel on? I can see setting up an alternating shift pattern with a pretty wide range, using something like a 46/30. I haven't yet calculated the proper chainring sizes for a AW or as a function of rear sprocket.

If it turns out I can do a good finish restoration, I'll tend to keep it plausibly original. If I can't I'll probably hot-rod it, with an FG hub and a TA Cyclotourist double on the front, and some other lightweighted parts.

Or maybe I can find a Cyclo 3 or 4 conversion ...

Bikes of this type were intended for clubs and reasonably fast weekend club rides, one or several day trips. This sounds a lot like Audax riding or randonneuring, and it seems to me this Rudge frame is well suited for comfort on long rides. Here in Michigan that means, sometimes you need to climb! We have river valleys!
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Old 12-27-18, 09:50 AM
  #18941  
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Originally Posted by Dan Burkhart View Post
I can tell you he is alive and well if that makes you feel better.
I kinda recall he was going to leave bikes behind for a while and focus on sewing machines.

My, what nerds we all are! That actually sounds interesting!
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Old 12-27-18, 09:52 AM
  #18942  
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Originally Posted by Road Fan View Post
Some may have noticed my thread on a 1952 Rudge Aero Special that I'm starting to dig into. On this or other 3 or 4 speed Sports or Clubmans, has anyone put a dual front chainwheel on? I can see setting up an alternating shift pattern with a pretty wide range, using something like a 46/30. I haven't yet calculated the proper chainring sizes for a AW or as a function of rear sprocket.

If it turns out I can do a good finish restoration, I'll tend to keep it plausibly original. If I can't I'll probably hot-rod it, with an FG hub and a TA Cyclotourist double on the front, and some other lightweighted parts.

Or maybe I can find a Cyclo 3 or 4 conversion ...

Bikes of this type were intended for clubs and reasonably fast weekend club rides, one or several day trips. This sounds a lot like Audax riding or randonneuring, and it seems to me this Rudge frame is well suited for comfort on long rides. Here in Michigan that means, sometimes you need to climb! We have river valleys!
Or, you could use a modern 5 or 8 speed hub and save the trouble of cold setting and crank replacement. Even the S5 hub from the 60s has a good range to work with. I'm fond of mine.
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Old 12-27-18, 10:59 AM
  #18943  
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Originally Posted by Road Fan View Post
Some may have noticed my thread on a 1952 Rudge Aero Special that I'm starting to dig into. On this or other 3 or 4 speed Sports or Clubmans, has anyone put a dual front chainwheel on? I can see setting up an alternating shift pattern with a pretty wide range, using something like a 46/30. I haven't yet calculated the proper chainring sizes for a AW or as a function of rear sprocket.

If it turns out I can do a good finish restoration, I'll tend to keep it plausibly original. If I can't I'll probably hot-rod it, with an FG hub and a TA Cyclotourist double on the front, and some other lightweighted parts.

Or maybe I can find a Cyclo 3 or 4 conversion ...

Bikes of this type were intended for clubs and reasonably fast weekend club rides, one or several day trips. This sounds a lot like Audax riding or randonneuring, and it seems to me this Rudge frame is well suited for comfort on long rides. Here in Michigan that means, sometimes you need to climb! We have river valleys!
ive set up many bikes with an aw hub and multiple chainrings. You need something to take up chainslack, an old derailleur with the limit screws holdin it in the right spot works. I choose chainrings by splitting the difference between gears. Sort a half step set up. Since an aw increases its gear by adding a third of the gear each time, you can get half steps on the chainrings by adding 1/6. 36/42 works well. I usually include a granny gear as well. The aw isnt supposed to be able to handle really low gears, but it works for me.

Not a great pic but u get the idea.
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Old 12-27-18, 11:09 AM
  #18944  
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Royal Scot 3 Speed
Listed here in Canada (Woodstock area) @ $200.00.
Listed as a 1960...

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Old 12-27-18, 11:35 AM
  #18945  
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Originally Posted by gster View Post
Royal Scot 3 Speed
Listed here in Canada (Woodstock area) @ $200.00.
Listed as a 1960...

That's interesting. I've seen a few Royal Scots , I even have one, and they have always been Raleighs. This is a Birmingham bike. Nice color too.
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Old 12-27-18, 02:26 PM
  #18946  
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BSA Update
This one's pretty much done with the exception of some fiddling and adding some nipples to the bare cable ends.
A kick stand if I have one and maybe some Bluemel mini fenders.....


I bought a new chain (TAYA Brand) at a reasonable $15.00 to accommodate the larger sprocket and found a pair of ribbed Raleigh rubber grips at the bike co op down the street.
I would cost this one out as follows:
Purchase- $80.00
New Rubber on back-free
New sprocket-Stock
New cups and headset $20.00
Stem, bars and caliper- $10.00
New pads-from stock- $10.00
New chain and grips-$20.00
New leather saddle-$75.00
New shifter cable -$9.00
New MKS pedals-$25.00
New cables and bearings -$20.00

Total $269.00 (CDN)
Minus rebuilt front Dynohub wheel that migrated to another bike -$100.00
= $169.00

Now if I were to try to sell this (I won't) I might be lucky to get $150.00 for it.
It doesn't "show" well and is no longer original.
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Old 12-27-18, 03:42 PM
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True, the market doesn't value these bikes like we do, but to me, this bike has added value because...it was originally a club bike, it's from the 50s, BSA has a great history and their bicycles are rare, the chainring and the chrome darts on the fork are extra cool and you have the option of using club type fittings while being historically correct.
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Old 12-27-18, 05:05 PM
  #18948  
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Thanks for the Cyclo diagrams and maintenance / set up techniques. I've saved it for the post clean up build. I didn't think I'd be posting my own machine in here soon. I was hoping to run into a Rudge like yours BigChief or nogliders bike, and then I found this.
After New Years I'll take the bike home to my place and start disassembling. I plan to label containers and bags for specific parts and take photos so I remember how it all went together. I also found a copy of Glenn's Complete Bicycle Manual with detailed three speed content that I'll use. Bought marine grease, sae30 weight oil, and an oil can today. Great thread!
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Old 12-27-18, 05:23 PM
  #18949  
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Originally Posted by 52telecaster View Post
ive set up many bikes with an aw hub and multiple chainrings. You need something to take up chainslack, an old derailleur with the limit screws holdin it in the right spot works. I choose chainrings by splitting the difference between gears. Sort a half step set up. Since an aw increases its gear by adding a third of the gear each time, you can get half steps on the chainrings by adding 1/6. 36/42 works well. I usually include a granny gear as well. The aw isnt supposed to be able to handle really low gears, but it works for me.

Not a great pic but u get the idea.
Technologically we're nearly on the same page. Using an AW hub we have internao ratios of 1.33/1.00/0.75. The rear mean ratio is therefore 1.33, so the chainring ratio should be 1.167. With a 44 tooth big front ring, I get a top gear of 94 inches, with a 27" wheel with 630x32 tires. The related half-step small ring should be 38 teeth, which gets a low gear of 40 inches. This does not seem very low, though the low gear with 48 teeth / 17 teeth is 58". But this is a true half-step: there are not duplications, and the spread of gears is totally even.

What I prefer is not a true half step, and it uses the AW rarios, 17 teeth in the rear, and 44/28 chainrings. Here the gear range is 33.75" up to 94.3". While the gears overlap making for an Alpine or crossover shift pattern, there are no duplications - you get 6 distinct gears, though the spread does not match the evenness of the 44/37.

With that frame or with others did you have to deal with the 1 ⅜ x 26 tpi threading issue? Or did you have the foresight to only choose frames with true BSC threading?
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Old 12-27-18, 05:50 PM
  #18950  
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Originally Posted by BigChief View Post
True, the market doesn't value these bikes like we do, but to me, this bike has added value because...it was originally a club bike, it's from the 50s, BSA has a great history and their bicycles are rare, the chainring and the chrome darts on the fork are extra cool and you have the option of using club type fittings while being historically correct.
Re: market, quite true. It's a nice riding bike and I like the history as well.
Had it out tonight for a quick trip and back. Still a few small bugs but they'll be will be worked out in time.
Come spring I'll put some serious miles on it.
Thanks for the kind words.
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