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For the love of English 3 speeds...

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For the love of English 3 speeds...

Old 03-27-19, 05:17 PM
  #19676  
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1948 Humber Beeston Clubman Model 321

Found this article on the Raleigh produced Clubmans, thought it is an interesting read, it covers the following:-
Raleigh Lenton Sports/Clubman
Rudge Aero Sports/Clubman
Humber Beeston Sports Clubman

These were all basically the same bike badge engineered and with a few differing components, apparently the Humber version is the rarest.

See here:- https://on-the-drops.blogspot.com/20...1946-1951.html
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Old 03-27-19, 05:28 PM
  #19677  
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Originally Posted by gster
1930 Hercules Update
I saw my friend George at Parts Unknown today.
He had a nice NOS Westwood 28" rear wheel.
Probably made in India.

It accepted a SA freewheel I had in the garage.
The old Villiers freewheel is stuck on good and doesn't
want to budge.

This may work as a stand in until I sort out the original.

Chrome is good.
$20.00
Try this UK website, they supply new Vintage wheels and have Westwood Wheels in stock:- Spare Parts A complete Westwood 28 X 11/2" wheel is £35


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Old 03-27-19, 05:31 PM
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The B17 has been my standard for saddles up to now. In a little game of "musical saddles" the Royal Nord got the newish B67on the RH, the Salsa Vaya gave up it's apple green B17 which is on the Robin Hood and a brand new B17 "aged" and "laced" in dark tan, has been assigned to the Vaya. Supposedly it breaks in faster and is a little softer. Time will tell, but I like the look. Now to find some green bar tape for the Robin Hood Sports.
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Old 03-27-19, 06:31 PM
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I’m going to go longer distance tomorrow with the B17 narrow and see how it feels. At 126 LBS, there’s not much pressure so to speak. My biggest grip is the 3 times I’ve had to stop and tighten the seat clamp so the nose doesn’t ride up to much. I switched to a small Carradice, more in tune with my carry needs.
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Old 03-27-19, 06:35 PM
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Originally Posted by PeterLYoung
Found this article on the Raleigh produced Clubmans, thought it is an interesting read, it covers the following:-
Raleigh Lenton Sports/Clubman
Rudge Aero Sports/Clubman
Humber Beeston Sports Clubman

These were all basically the same bike badge engineered and with a few differing components, apparently the Humber version is the rarest.

See here:- https://on-the-drops.blogspot.com/20...1946-1951.html
that is a great site! One that I certainly have bookmarked. It’s the vintage version of the Sears Christmas dream catalog.
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Old 03-27-19, 07:05 PM
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Originally Posted by PeterLYoung
My Stepson who lives in California is a Graphic Artist so I written him to see if he is interested, if he can't do it I might try Mercian in Derby who restored my Freddie Grubb frame with correct decals.
A couple of possibilities!!!!!
I asked bike shop owner Mike some followup questions today and he said it was an old Trek he was working on and he brought the frame to a sign maker who photographed the frame and then printed new transfers from the photos. Cost $75. Sounds miraculous, but that's what he did.
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Old 03-27-19, 07:18 PM
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Originally Posted by 3speedslow


that is a great site! One that I certainly have bookmarked. It’s the vintage version of the Sears Christmas dream catalog.
Bikes may be rare but they can be bought. Where do I find this countryside for riding?
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Old 03-27-19, 07:49 PM
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Originally Posted by PeterLYoung
Try this UK website, they supply new Vintage wheels and have Westwood Wheels in stock:- Spare Parts A complete Westwood 28 X 11/2" wheel is £35


For me, it's always the shipping and duty costs that
hold me back from ordering.
And I like hunt around (on my bike..)
for this stuff.
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Old 03-27-19, 09:17 PM
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I love the look of an English club racer but the all original 1958 Sun Cresta fills the void pretty well. For those who have not seen it in awhile...……. The ' 71 Robin Hood Sports Model helps too.


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Old 03-28-19, 02:03 AM
  #19685  
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Originally Posted by paulb_in_bkln
I asked bike shop owner Mike some followup questions today and he said it was an old Trek he was working on and he brought the frame to a sign maker who photographed the frame and then printed new transfers from the photos. Cost $75. Sounds miraculous, but that's what he did.
That sounds great, I will send photo's to my stepson who has come back and said he will do it, trouble with my frame is someone touched up the frame and sprayed a thin layer of paint over the transfers, also the Seat Tube Transfer is incomplete. There are humber Decals out there but not for my bike but they do have correct font and lettering colours so I will photograph some which together with the photo's from the frame should enable him to produce the artwork which I will provide to Lloyds to produce transfers!!!!!
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Old 03-28-19, 02:08 AM
  #19686  
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Originally Posted by gster
For me, it's always the shipping and duty costs that
hold me back from ordering.
And I like hunt around (on my bike..)
for this stuff.
I agree they can be prohibitive especially the duty (parts from USA to UK face 20% tariff!!!) but it does show these replacement parts are available. That wheel you found must have travelled through this supplier at some point in its past.
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Old 03-28-19, 02:11 AM
  #19687  
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Originally Posted by browngw
I love the look of an English club racer but the all original 1958 Sun Cresta fills the void pretty well. For those who have not seen it in awhile...……. The ' 71 Robin Hood Sports Model helps too.


Wow, stunning bikes, did you restore them? beautifully done, only hope I can do as well with the Humber.
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Old 03-28-19, 03:46 AM
  #19688  
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Originally Posted by PeterLYoung
That sounds great, I will send photo's to my stepson who has come back and said he will do it, trouble with my frame is someone touched up the frame and sprayed a thin layer of paint over the transfers, also the Seat Tube Transfer is incomplete. There are humber Decals out there but not for my bike but they do have correct font and lettering colours so I will photograph some which together with the photo's from the frame should enable him to produce the artwork which I will provide to Lloyds to produce transfers!!!!!
You can make vector images from bit map images like a JPEG or TIFF. I takes skill and time to do the selection work. I have made bit map images in PhotoShop that I sent to a graphic designer and had them vectorized for my business. What they want is large, high resolution images to work from and in this case, exact measurements of the original transfer. You would need a soft measuring tape that conforms to the curvature of the frame. They could distort the photo to account for the curve. Modern transfers will be made of vinyl not the old style varnish type. I don't have any problem with vinyl transfers. I think they can look great if done well. They are certainly more durable.
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Old 03-28-19, 07:10 AM
  #19689  
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Originally Posted by PeterLYoung
I agree they can be prohibitive especially the duty (parts from USA to UK face 20% tariff!!!) but it does show these replacement parts are available. That wheel you found must have travelled through this supplier at some point in its past.
Their prices are really quite reasonable.
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Old 03-28-19, 07:25 AM
  #19690  
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Originally Posted by PeterLYoung
Wow, stunning bikes, did you restore them? beautifully done, only hope I can do as well with the Humber.
I did restore both bikes, but for different reasons, both had benefitted from long periods of relatively careful storage. The Sun was a one owner bike that had been stored in the owner's family home for a number of years while he was a professor here in Canada. He wanted a caring home for his prized possession he had purchased new in Birmingham. It required many weeks of careful detailing and maintenance but is truly a looker in the colour department.
It has been speculated that the Robin Hood may have been stored for many years in a Toronto ON bike shop that had imported large quantities of RH and Dunelt bicycles. When I purchased it at the Canadian Vintage Bicycle Show four or five years ago I paid top dollar ($165!) based on the fact that it looked in decent condition (but not clean) and it had a 23" frame. Again many hours of careful detailing and some bling accessories like the saddle, pump etc.
Early pics of both bikes. Threads on both bikes are available. 1958 Sun Cresta by Sun Cycle Birmingham England. and 1971 Robin Hood 3 Speed "Sports Model" Time Capsule


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Old 03-28-19, 07:31 AM
  #19691  
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Just imagine!
You could walk into a bike shop and get
the parts you need!
She looks like a young Dianna Dors...
Britain's answer to Marilyn Monroe!

The other girl is a young Honor Blackman (Avengers/James Bond)


I was in a bike shop a while back and was asking about cotter pins.
The owner said:
"Why bother? We just cut the cranks off and replace with a cartridge..."
I stopped in yesterday (I do like the guy) to see if
he had a source for Westwood rims and he just said
"No, you can't get them."
Well, it turns out you can....
I had one an hour later.
I could always pull one off my Eastman Path Racer (India)
but don't like to scavenge from bikes that are finished.

This is the first bike I put together when I wanted a Pashley but couldn't justify the price...


It pre dates my interest in 3 speeds.
It took me 10 years to find the right saddle!

Last edited by gster; 03-28-19 at 07:51 AM.
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Old 03-28-19, 09:22 AM
  #19692  
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Originally Posted by PeterLYoung
Just acquired this 1948 Humber Beeston Clubman from a gentleman in his eighties, he bought it new in 1948 and last rode it a couple of years ago.
Only changes he made were to convert it to straight handlebars and a few years back he had it serviced and shop sprayed it to touch up the blue paint, unfortunately they sprayed over the transfers and head badge though they are still visible, otherwise it is all original. He says he still has original receipt and is trying to find it and let me have it. It also comes with original Pump.
It has a Sturmey Archer AM 3 Speed which apparently was designed for Clubman type Sports Cycles as well as original wing nuts as per SA Literature.
Humber were taken over be Raleigh in 1931, I think, so it is a Raleigh derivative but still having Humber features such as Fork Crown.

Photos & Literature Pics below:-
Peter,

Great pictures! I have the Rudge sibling to the 1952 version from that series, the Model 127 Rudge Aero Special. I got it nearly complete, sans front fender, saddle and right brake lever. According to Peter Kohler, yours is UK market since in the US they used hex nuts instead of wing nuts on the wheels, steel Dunlop Special Lightweight rims, and AW IGH instead of AM or other available Sturmey Archer models. Mine has 1952-standard 27 x 1 1/4 tires. My paint is original since my head badge has not been painted over, but the decals are somewhat stressed though the "Reynolds" is near-perfect. The frame has some significant rust, though none of the tubes seem to have been penetrated or weakened. It needs new grease at least in all the bearings. The BB and headset races all look good, from my cleaning.

I have some pictures, I'll have to do a "show" posting!

Looking in the holes, I see the frame joints are pinned: upper headtube, ST/TT, chainstays, ST/BB, DT/BB, and lower headtube. The steer tube does not appear to be pinned to the fork crown. All the components look to match the advertisements displayed in Peter Kohler's website. My rims are true and with no easy to see runout, so the bike was either babied mechanically or the rims were replaced at some point. Spoke tension seems even so any wheel work done was professional or at least high quality.

What have you decided to do about the paint and "livery" on your bike? I'm on the fence regarding just getting her rolling patina and all, to hot-rod the mechanics, or to get some decals and restore the finish. Some points on my paint were hidden from the elements, such as under the rubber-buffered Pletscher kickstand so I have a decent color model for the electric blue.

Do you have a source for decals, or to have them made?

Last edited by Road Fan; 03-28-19 at 09:26 AM.
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Old 03-28-19, 10:28 AM
  #19693  
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Originally Posted by Road Fan
Peter,

Great pictures! I have the Rudge sibling to the 1952 version from that series, the Model 127 Rudge Aero Special. I got it nearly complete, sans front fender, saddle and right brake lever. According to Peter Kohler, yours is UK market since in the US they used hex nuts instead of wing nuts on the wheels, steel Dunlop Special Lightweight rims, and AW IGH instead of AM or other available Sturmey Archer models. Mine has 1952-standard 27 x 1 1/4 tires. My paint is original since my head badge has not been painted over, but the decals are somewhat stressed though the "Reynolds" is near-perfect. The frame has some significant rust, though none of the tubes seem to have been penetrated or weakened. It needs new grease at least in all the bearings. The BB and headset races all look good, from my cleaning.

I have some pictures, I'll have to do a "show" posting!

Looking in the holes, I see the frame joints are pinned: upper headtube, ST/TT, chainstays, ST/BB, DT/BB, and lower headtube. The steer tube does not appear to be pinned to the fork crown. All the components look to match the advertisements displayed in Peter Kohler's website. My rims are true and with no easy to see runout, so the bike was either babied mechanically or the rims were replaced at some point. Spoke tension seems even so any wheel work done was professional or at least high quality.

What have you decided to do about the paint and "livery" on your bike? I'm on the fence regarding just getting her rolling patina and all, to hot-rod the mechanics, or to get some decals and restore the finish. Some points on my paint were hidden from the elements, such as under the rubber-buffered Pletscher kickstand so I have a decent color model for the electric blue.

Do you have a source for decals, or to have them made?
Hi: I am in UK at present and this is where I acquired the bike, most of the paint on mine is original but touching up was crudely done hence paint over decals etc. I plan to do a full restoration after I complete a current project which is a Dayton Roadmaster, so won't be starting until late this year or early next. I can't find decals for the bike so I am trying to get artwork done so a UK company Lloyds who specialise in decals can make me a set. My stepson who is a graphic artist has agreed as a favour to have a go at making necessary artwork but if he can't do it I will have to commission same from a studio which will be very expensive I am sure. I have taken the best photos of what remains of the decals and made measurements which I have sent to him to see what is possible. The guy I bought the bike from bought it new in 1948, as he got older he changed the handlebars and stem to make it more practical for him to ride, luckily a Forum member has the correct bars and stem which he offered to sell to me and I have purchased so I can restore it to original specification, the rest of the bike is totally original except pedals which I can fix easily. I will strip/dismantle everything clean/de-rust/re-chrome/overhaul/replace bearings etc. all as appropriate and the frame will go to a frame builder for blasting and re-enamelling and fitting of decals (assuming I have new ones).
One of the issues with decals is they made so many versions, those on my bike don't match any I have found in literature or on the web and then they change between the various Rudge/Raleigh/Humber badge engineered versions. Luckily enough remains on my bike to reconstruct them. Rudge models are a bit more common than the Humber versions and the Raleigh versions are most common from what I have read. By the way the Reynolds Decals are almost all available so if you can determine the tubing on your bike you will be able to get replacements. By 1952 they were generally using Reynolds 531 Plain Tubing on these bikes.
Please do post photos, it would be nice to see the bike before restoration.
Regards
Peter

Last edited by PeterLYoung; 03-28-19 at 10:38 AM.
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Old 03-28-19, 10:37 AM
  #19694  
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Originally Posted by gster
Just imagine!
You could walk into a bike shop and get
the parts you need!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BRt1gZqg5ag
She looks like a young Dianna Dors...
Britain's answer to Marilyn Monroe!

The other girl is a young Honor Blackman (Avengers/James Bond)


I was in a bike shop a while back and was asking about cotter pins.
The owner said:
"Why bother? We just cut the cranks off and replace with a cartridge..."
I stopped in yesterday (I do like the guy) to see if
he had a source for Westwood rims and he just said
"No, you can't get them."
Well, it turns out you can....
I had one an hour later.
I could always pull one off my Eastman Path Racer (India)
but don't like to scavenge from bikes that are finished.

This is the first bike I put together when I wanted a Pashley but couldn't justify the price...


It pre dates my interest in 3 speeds.
It took me 10 years to find the right saddle!
Watched the film today, found it on YouTube easily. Brilliant. Honor Blackman, such a dish, she can always have a ride on my crossbar!!! never fancied Diana Dors though.
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Old 03-28-19, 11:48 AM
  #19695  
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Originally Posted by paulb_in_bkln
Wow. I watched A Boy A Girl and a Bike on Youtube a few weeks ago. This might have been one of the club bikes in that movie. If any bike is a candidate for a complete best quality restoration, this must be one. Someone told me that frame painters can, or have go-to people who can, make perfect duplicates of original decals.
thanks for the heathep on the movie! Watching now.
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Old 03-28-19, 02:39 PM
  #19696  
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Originally Posted by paulb_in_bkln
Bikes may be rare but they can be bought. Where do I find this countryside for riding?
It's a short train or bus or car ride north of you in New York. We spend our weekends in gorgeous Ulster County.
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Old 03-28-19, 03:08 PM
  #19697  
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I found a set of NOS tires out in the shed.
The original tubes on the Hercules still hold air.


I've started to work on the frame and have been using this product to soak rusty parts in.

It seems to be working (slowly)..
I did find another Westwood rim down the street but I couldn't find a size stamped on it.
It was a French rim so I passed but could go back.
On a positive note, it looks like the
Toronto Vintage Bicycle Show will be on again this summer!
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Old 03-28-19, 05:39 PM
  #19698  
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Originally Posted by gster
For me, it's always the shipping and duty costs that
hold me back from ordering.
And I like hunt around (on my bike..)
for this stuff.
The problem with these are that they are only available in 36H. Not much use for someone restoring a 32/40h vintage English roadster.
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Old 03-28-19, 06:37 PM
  #19699  
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Originally Posted by PeterLYoung
Hi: I am in UK at present and this is where I acquired the bike, most of the paint on mine is original but touching up was crudely done hence paint over decals etc. I plan to do a full restoration after I complete a current project which is a Dayton Roadmaster, so won't be starting until late this year or early next. I can't find decals for the bike so I am trying to get artwork done so a UK company Lloyds who specialise in decals can make me a set. My stepson who is a graphic artist has agreed as a favour to have a go at making necessary artwork but if he can't do it I will have to commission same from a studio which will be very expensive I am sure. I have taken the best photos of what remains of the decals and made measurements which I have sent to him to see what is possible. The guy I bought the bike from bought it new in 1948, as he got older he changed the handlebars and stem to make it more practical for him to ride, luckily a Forum member has the correct bars and stem which he offered to sell to me and I have purchased so I can restore it to original specification, the rest of the bike is totally original except pedals which I can fix easily. I will strip/dismantle everything clean/de-rust/re-chrome/overhaul/replace bearings etc. all as appropriate and the frame will go to a frame builder for blasting and re-enamelling and fitting of decals (assuming I have new ones).
One of the issues with decals is they made so many versions, those on my bike don't match any I have found in literature or on the web and then they change between the various Rudge/Raleigh/Humber badge engineered versions. Luckily enough remains on my bike to reconstruct them. Rudge models are a bit more common than the Humber versions and the Raleigh versions are most common from what I have read. By the way the Reynolds Decals are almost all available so if you can determine the tubing on your bike you will be able to get replacements. By 1952 they were generally using Reynolds 531 Plain Tubing on these bikes.
Please do post photos, it would be nice to see the bike before restoration.
Regards
Peter
I will make a show thread, it will take a few days.

What I would really like in the spirit of these bikes is use them for some real distance (well, my distance!) riding - 60 mile day loops here in Michigan and Illinois, Ohio, and Wisconsin. To support that today I would want to change the rims to aluminum, get an aluminum shell for the AW, TA Cyclotourist single or double crank, expand the gearing to have a granny climbing gear (that's where the double crank comes in), aluminum front hub, possible brake upgrade, leather saddle with aluminum or titanium frame, and a GB aluminum stem, possibly with GB rando bars. I have a rear bag support and a nice Carradice Nelson, and I can put on a front bag support. The bicycle has very low trail by today's standards, it could steer well with a front bag or a porteur. The main blocking point I see is how to provide for a chain tension adjustment if I go ahead with the granny gear idea.

What do you think of such a project - to resurrect the bicycle's use case in the modern context? I love the idea, since the bicycle is one year older than I am!

After all, unless I look far and wide for a 1971 Raleigh International in my size, or to re-equip my Woodrup Giro, this is the closest I'm likely to get to an RRA!

Last edited by Road Fan; 03-28-19 at 07:07 PM.
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Old 03-29-19, 04:20 AM
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Location: Southport, North Carolina, USA & Pevensey, East Sussex, UK
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Bikes: 1)1992 Trek 970, 2)2010 Trek 6500, 3)1973 Colnago Super, 4)1955 Freddie Grubb Meteor. 5)1993 Airborne Ti-Hag Titanium. 6)1936 BSA 602DX Roadster. 7)1957 Philips P2 Sports. 8)1955 Dayton Roadmaster. 9)1948 Humber Clubman. 10) 1949 Sunbeam WA3 Wayfarer

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Originally Posted by Road Fan
I will make a show thread, it will take a few days.

What I would really like in the spirit of these bikes is use them for some real distance (well, my distance!) riding - 60 mile day loops here in Michigan and Illinois, Ohio, and Wisconsin. To support that today I would want to change the rims to aluminum, get an aluminum shell for the AW, TA Cyclotourist single or double crank, expand the gearing to have a granny climbing gear (that's where the double crank comes in), aluminum front hub, possible brake upgrade, leather saddle with aluminum or titanium frame, and a GB aluminum stem, possibly with GB rando bars. I have a rear bag support and a nice Carradice Nelson, and I can put on a front bag support. The bicycle has very low trail by today's standards, it could steer well with a front bag or a porteur. The main blocking point I see is how to provide for a chain tension adjustment if I go ahead with the granny gear idea.

What do you think of such a project - to resurrect the bicycle's use case in the modern context? I love the idea, since the bicycle is one year older than I am!

After all, unless I look far and wide for a 1971 Raleigh International in my size, or to re-equip my Woodrup Giro, this is the closest I'm likely to get to an RRA!
For me, I think it depends on the originality of the bike in question, if the bike is fairly complete with original parts it seems a shame to turn it into something else when it is perfectly restorable and when you think about it people did those long & touring rides on them back in the day. On the other hand if there really is not much re-usable other than the frame, then building what you describe is perfectly legitimate and at least the frame survives. If you are having to climb serious hills then I can understand the need for a granny gear and there are sprung chain tensioners I have seen on eBay by Cyclo and I am sure I have seen one by Campagnolo but they are not common.
I have recently restored a Freddie Grubb Road Bike from 1955 but there were no usable original parts on it so basically it was just a frame, so I rebuilt it with full Campagnolo parts from late 50's to late 60's so it is not how a 1955 bicycle would have looked but at least I can ride it and enjoy using it. I saved it from the scrap heap. Conversely I am soon to restore a 1948 Humber Clubman and I am going to great lengths to bring it back to 'as new' original condition as it has almost all original restorable parts. I am only venturing how I see it and I am sure others may view it differently to me. Hope this helps.
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