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For the love of English 3 speeds...

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For the love of English 3 speeds...

Old 06-06-19, 10:58 AM
  #20601  
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Originally Posted by DQRider View Post
I'm trying to find a nice old brass quadrant shifter for the top tube, but I'm not even sure if the cable pull is the same.


It is.
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Old 06-06-19, 03:21 PM
  #20602  
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Originally Posted by DQRider View Post
[SIZE="3"]I'm trying to find a nice old brass quadrant shifter for the top tube, but I'm not even sure if the cable pull is the same.

That's the first time I've ever seen a seat-tube shifter. I wonder how hard that would be to get used to.

The tires are Fairweather Touring "Cruise" Tire, 700x38c - Cream from Velo Orange. Nicest, smoothest tires I've ever ridden on.[/SIZE]

As always with Sturmey Archer parts; British eBay. (Sturmey Archer Quadrant).
You might be able to get them for prices as low as £25.00 but generally they seem to go for £45.00 + shipping.

As far as compatibility, pretty much every regular SA 3-speed seems compatible with any shifter with the exception of the K-model and fixed gear versions. Here is someone who mounted a Quadrant shifter on his Pashley Guv'Nor as well as someone who went the seat post approach.

Those are some nice looking tyres, and of course that's a Japanese brand.
Fairly cheap directly from Fairweather in Japan, they have some nice stuff and a fair bit of collaboration with Panaracer and Nitto.

VO: Fairweather (x Panaracer) Touring "Cruise" Tire, 700x38c

Guess I have some thinking to do.

EDIT:

Seat post mount with shim above seat post clamp.
(Image by Forrester)

Last edited by JaccoW; 06-06-19 at 03:33 PM.
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Old 06-06-19, 03:43 PM
  #20603  
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Originally Posted by paulb_in_bkln View Post
Thinking about that Trek 410 and seat tube angle. For that large frame (24-inch/61 cm seat tube) a 71 degree seat tube angle like the Raleighs would bring the seat back .8 inches. Is that a lot?
About 20 mm, it certainly could be a lot, depending on your needs to get a good position.
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Old 06-06-19, 03:56 PM
  #20604  
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Originally Posted by clubman View Post
If you want old school derailleurs, you'll never shift a 17-26 freewheel. Cyclo Standards generally shifted in 2 tooth increments and not well at that. If you added a double chainwheel, I'd expect it to blow up.
What about a wide double in the front, maybe 9 tooth spread, with just the original 17 tooth on the Sturmey Archer hub?

Is there any vintage-style derailleur that could handle a wide double?

Recall that to build his custom René Herse, Jan Heine made or adapted a suicide shifter to handle a wide compact double. I take a little confidence from this. Plus I’m using a simple Huret with a 39/53, no pins or indexing.
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Old 06-06-19, 04:23 PM
  #20605  
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Originally Posted by Road Fan View Post
What about a wide double in the front, maybe 9 tooth spread, with just the original 17 tooth on the Sturmey Archer hub?

Is there any vintage-style derailleur that could handle a wide double?

Recall that to build his custom René Herse, Jan Heine made or adapted a suicide shifter to handle a wide compact double. I take a little confidence from this. Plus I’m using a simple Huret with a 39/53, no pins or indexing.
I think Huret would be the way to go. Allvit's were strong like bull and even some of the later Challenger models looked the part and performed well. Perhaps even Svelto but I never liked them.
edit. So if you're talking a single rear with a double front, you'll still need a tensioner. I think a rear freewheel will give you more range, after all, an AW already has a very wide range, it's the in between gear inches that are missing. Hence the old corncob style freewheels.

Last edited by clubman; 06-06-19 at 04:27 PM.
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Old 06-07-19, 05:48 AM
  #20606  
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Just something I've thought about and have no idea how successful it would be but...There are always two 1/16" shims on a standard SA driver. Two 1/8" cogs should still leave room for the circlip. Between dished and flat cogs, it might be possible to set up a dual cog derailleur system with the standard driver and cogs. If you used a FW or S5 hub, you would have a ton of range.
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Old 06-07-19, 07:32 AM
  #20607  
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Originally Posted by BigChief View Post
Just something I've thought about and have no idea how successful it would be but...There are always two 1/16" shims on a standard SA driver. Two 1/8" cogs should still leave room for the circlip. Between dished and flat cogs, it might be possible to set up a dual cog derailleur system with the standard driver and cogs. If you used a FW or S5 hub, you would have a ton of range.
Not a bad idea, especially if you use 3/32" cogs for even more adjustibility. A mechanic friend of mine mills SA cogs from old hyperglide cogs with a dremel. You'll need more spacers and of course you'd need a compatible front chainring/crank.

Maybe too much work to add a few gears to a roadster? I think this is why we have many rides.
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Old 06-07-19, 08:12 AM
  #20608  
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That looks amazing!
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Old 06-07-19, 12:51 PM
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Originally Posted by clubman View Post
Not a bad idea, especially if you use 3/32" cogs for even more adjustibility. A mechanic friend of mine mills SA cogs from old hyperglide cogs with a dremel. You'll need more spacers and of course you'd need a compatible front chainring/crank.

Maybe too much work to add a few gears to a roadster? I think this is why we have many rides.
Yeah, I've never put any of my wild ideas into action. The only thing that really motivates me are preservation/restoration projects. I do enjoy getting unused, broken vintage bikes on the road again. The only exception being my scorcher, but, in that case, it was over painted, the sheet metal was gone and the whole front end wasn't original. I wouldn't have sacrificed a more complete example.
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Old 06-07-19, 11:16 PM
  #20610  
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Lowest "safe" gearing for an AW?

Hello!

I've long been a fan of Sturmey Archers, and have several, my favorite is a "resto-mod" Hercules I built up about 15 years ago, its a superb townie, but I do now and again take it on longer rides.

Some details on the bike, I think its a 63', I had some cable stops brazed onto to the frame to lose the clamp on ones, got it powder coated semi gloss black, retapped the BB to accept "modern" square taper BBs, dug up a Ti BB out of my parts box, aluminum stem and bars, Mafac center pull brakes, and built a 700c wheelset for it built around a NOS 28 hole AW I got off ebay. I did open up the hub and clean it throughly and re-oil. The chrome fenders are in pretty good shape too.

Last weekend I actually rode a century on it, I've been biking a lot this spring and summer so I hit the century pretty hard and managed an average speed of 16 MPH, a little over 6 hours of pedaling. The ride was around lake tahoe with an out and back leg to Truckee. Was a great day weather wise too!

Last november I rode a century on my road bike with 11,000' of climbing, and I'm more fit now than I was then... There is a bruiser of a ride in early July that I may want to ride on my 3 speed, the stats are 129 miles and 15,000+' of climbing... The tahoe century was sort of flat, 5,000' of climbing, I ran 52/24 gearing and it was perfect really, I could sit and pedal the climbs comfortably in 1st gear, or click it to second and stand up and smash pretty comfortably, but there is a lot more climbing on the perspective upcoming ride, and I'll have to pedal easier than I did on the tahoe century to ride for an additional 5 hours or so, so I'll need lower gears, much lower gears I think...

SA says you shouldn't go below a 2:1 ratio, meaning I should only drop to a 48 up front, but I read of one guy that ran 40/21 which is a bit lower than SA recommends, but I have no idea how hard he rode it...

I'd love to go 42/24, but I'd hate to blow up this hub, not finishing the ride due to a mechanical would be a bummer, but to break my baby would really suck. The lower top speed of 42/24 would be about 18 MPH, where the 52/24 is about 22 MPH, I'm fine with being spun out at 18 MPH.

So, anyone have experience with gearing SA's way down and how they fare under such circumstances? As the load on the hub gears is largely relative to my weight, I weigh 158 pounds...


Couple pics for you guys, EDIT/// I can't post pics yet.
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Old 06-07-19, 11:26 PM
  #20611  
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Originally Posted by horatio View Post
Update on the '52 Sports. WD40 flush of the IGH got things moving again, but I've been unable to hook up and ride, as the front tire has succumbed to dry-rot. Anyone successfully coax a modern 700c wheel with 100mm hub into these forks? I'm not quite strong enough to pry them apart, so I may do a cold set with threaded rod.
When I've done this in the past I've done one leg at a time, so I can make sure that each leg bends half the additional required width, which keeps the wheel centered under the bike, so it will still ride no hands.

As for leverage, is the fork out of the bike?
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Old 06-08-19, 01:13 AM
  #20612  
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Originally Posted by jackbombay View Post
When I've done this in the past I've done one leg at a time, so I can make sure that each leg bends half the additional required width, which keeps the wheel centered under the bike, so it will still ride no hands.

As for leverage, is the fork out of the bike?
Thanks for the info. Fork is still in the bike, on the repair stand. Would they be easier to bend out of the frame?
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Old 06-08-19, 03:14 AM
  #20613  
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Sun Tour shifters on seatpost

Originally Posted by DQRider View Post
I'm trying to find a nice old brass quadrant shifter for the top tube, but I'm not even sure if the cable pull is the same.

That's the first time I've ever seen a seat-tube shifter. I wonder how hard that would be to get used to.

The tires are Fairweather Touring "Cruise" Tire, 700x38c - Cream from Velo Orange. Nicest, smoothest tires I've ever ridden on.




IGHs have a strong spring and can overwhelm most variable shifters. These Sun Tours work a 1930s derailleur and a 1946 SA 4 speed. They have a very good clutch so that they move freely but hold the position you select and don't slip.


In situ. The shift lever travel for the IGH is very short. Maybe 20 degrees of rotation selects gears 1 to 4.

Last edited by Johno59; 06-08-19 at 06:39 AM.
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Old 06-08-19, 03:21 AM
  #20614  
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Originally Posted by jackbombay View Post
Hello!

I've long been a fan of Sturmey Archers, and have several, my favorite is a "resto-mod" Hercules I built up about 15 years ago, its a superb townie, but I do now and again take it on longer rides.

Some details on the bike, I think its a 63', I had some cable stops brazed onto to the frame to lose the clamp on ones, got it powder coated semi gloss black, retapped the BB to accept "modern" square taper BBs, dug up a Ti BB out of my parts box, aluminum stem and bars, Mafac center pull brakes, and built a 700c wheelset for it built around a NOS 28 hole AW I got off ebay. I did open up the hub and clean it throughly and re-oil. The chrome fenders are in pretty good shape too.

Last weekend I actually rode a century on it, I've been biking a lot this spring and summer so I hit the century pretty hard and managed an average speed of 16 MPH, a little over 6 hours of pedaling. The ride was around lake tahoe with an out and back leg to Truckee. Was a great day weather wise too!

Last november I rode a century on my road bike with 11,000' of climbing, and I'm more fit now than I was then... There is a bruiser of a ride in early July that I may want to ride on my 3 speed, the stats are 129 miles and 15,000+' of climbing... The tahoe century was sort of flat, 5,000' of climbing, I ran 52/24 gearing and it was perfect really, I could sit and pedal the climbs comfortably in 1st gear, or click it to second and stand up and smash pretty comfortably, but there is a lot more climbing on the perspective upcoming ride, and I'll have to pedal easier than I did on the tahoe century to ride for an additional 5 hours or so, so I'll need lower gears, much lower gears I think...

SA says you shouldn't go below a 2:1 ratio, meaning I should only drop to a 48 up front, but I read of one guy that ran 40/21 which is a bit lower than SA recommends, but I have no idea how hard he rode it...

I'd love to go 42/24, but I'd hate to blow up this hub, not finishing the ride due to a mechanical would be a bummer, but to break my baby would really suck. The lower top speed of 42/24 would be about 18 MPH, where the 52/24 is about 22 MPH, I'm fine with being spun out at 18 MPH.

So, anyone have experience with gearing SA's way down and how they fare under such circumstances? As the load on the hub gears is largely relative to my weight, I weigh 158 pounds...


Couple pics for you guys, EDIT/// I can't post pics yet.
I've never put anywhere near that level of stress on an AW but I can tell you this. I think the most likely point of failure would be the splined joint of the cog to the driver. I would stick to 1/8" cogs not the 3/32". Every bit of purchase helps. Also, sometimes the drivers aren't machined perfectly and there can be either too much slop or too tight of a fit so the circlip doesn't fully engage in it's channel. It's rare, but I have run into both of those conditions over the years.
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Old 06-08-19, 07:07 AM
  #20615  
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Originally Posted by BigChief View Post
Just something I've thought about and have no idea how successful it would be but...There are always two 1/16" shims on a standard SA driver. Two 1/8" cogs should still leave room for the circlip. Between dished and flat cogs, it might be possible to set up a dual cog derailleur system with the standard driver and cogs. If you used a FW or S5 hub, you would have a ton of range.
Very smart! What derailleur and how would you attach it? A claw could be bolted to the dropout on the outer face of the dropout, but then the long axle nut with the hole would be displaced outward. Does that require a longer indicator chain? or what, to make sure the shifting adjustment is still as it was?
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Old 06-08-19, 07:53 AM
  #20616  
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1950 Superbe reassembly

Hey all,

I've got an issue with axle room on the drive side for the three speed cog. When I place the original washers in their position as found when I disassembled, there isn't enough room for the axle to slide into the drop out with enough leftover for the indicator chain bolt (the name escapes me right now). If I remove spacing washers, the tube is too close to the cog set which results in chain rub. Any thoughts? I'm new to setting these up so it's a bit confusing. Did I somehow move the axle too far toward the non drive side? Photo:
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Old 06-08-19, 08:06 AM
  #20617  
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Originally Posted by Ged117 View Post
Hey all,

I've got an issue with axle room on the drive side for the three speed cog. When I place the original washers in their position as found when I disassembled, there isn't enough room for the axle to slide into the drop out with enough leftover for the indicator chain bolt (the name escapes me right now). If I remove spacing washers, the tube is too close to the cog set which results in chain rub. Any thoughts? I'm new to setting these up so it's a bit confusing. Did I somehow move the axle too far toward the non drive side? Photo:
I need a refresher. This is a block with three cogs you've fit onto a standard AW hub? Or three separate cogs on the original driver? I understand two cogs will fit, how three, as they are thicker than the spacers?
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Old 06-08-19, 08:26 AM
  #20618  
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Originally Posted by paulb_in_bkln View Post
I need a refresher. This is a block with three cogs you've fit onto a standard AW hub? Or three separate cogs on the original driver? I understand two cogs will fit, how three, as they are thicker than the spacers?
This is an AG hub with a Cyclo derailer three speed added onto it I assume at purchase or just afterward. Right now I'm fitting just the AG and the cogset to make sure the AG shifts properly before installing the Cyclo parts.
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Old 06-08-19, 08:54 AM
  #20619  
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1960 Royal Enfield Superlight 3 speed anybody?

Love the 3 speed thread: )
Here's my latest Ebay find. A Royal Enfield Superlight Tourist with original 3 speed AG hub dated 1960. 531 main tubed frame is always good?

Note the front hub brake. And Raleigh chain-set with removable rings! New to me. The front lamp is cool too.
These are normally 3 speeds with 26" steel wheels.

Bought it for the frame, but the original paint on this one is possibly worth keeping? (Was intending to powdercoat it: )

I've already stripped it down & rebuilt it with a set of 650Bs from another machine just to try it out. I'm looking at using 700 alloy rims eventually.


Rides like a 3 speed should, but it needs brakes...

Alloy rims = good brakes & this is my other 1955ish RE Superlight frame built up as a Town Bike/Light Tourer with an FM 4 speed hub.
These frames take 700 rims with room for guards, so it is an obvious upgrade. Mainly for good braking, but also lighter: )

Love the 1950s Royal Enfields; ) The above is 26lb as seen & very nice to ride.
I'm keeping a diary of this ones progression on my website if you are interested: Royal Enfield Superlight ? Bicyclz.com
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Old 06-08-19, 09:05 AM
  #20620  
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Originally Posted by Ged117 View Post
This is an AG hub with a Cyclo derailer three speed added onto it I assume at purchase or just afterward. Right now I'm fitting just the AG and the cogset to make sure the AG shifts properly before installing the Cyclo parts.
With an AW there's no moving the hub left or right on the axle. I imagine the AG is the same way. You can get a right side axle nut that combines, into one piece, the hex nut and the part with the indicator window. That will solve the insufficient threads problem. As for the indicator chain, the length is correct when with it pulled out all the way the rod peeps a little bit over the end of the axle. But a shorter one should work, in my experience. But you lose the handy visual guide to position.
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Old 06-08-19, 09:24 AM
  #20621  
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Originally Posted by BigChief View Post
I've never put anywhere near that level of stress on an AW but I can tell you this. I think the most likely point of failure would be the splined joint of the cog to the driver. I would stick to 1/8" cogs not the 3/32". Every bit of purchase helps. Also, sometimes the drivers aren't machined perfectly and there can be either too much slop or too tight of a fit so the circlip doesn't fully engage in it's channel. It's rare, but I have run into both of those conditions over the years.
I hadn't considered that being a point of failure, I was figuring that something inside the hub would give first. To shear off 3 of the splines on the cog would really take some torque though, the cog is hardened steel.

Originally Posted by horatio View Post
Thanks for the info. Fork is still in the bike, on the repair stand. Would they be easier to bend out of the frame?
Out of the bike would be more precise, you could make a couple of chunks of 2x4 with a hole drilled in them and cut them in half so you could clamp the steer tube in a vice then work one leg at a time, you could put a long 2x4 between the legs of the fork to pry on the end of one leg with the other end of the 2x4 right up against the fork crown.
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Old 06-08-19, 09:56 AM
  #20622  
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Originally Posted by Ged117 View Post
Hey all,

I've got an issue with axle room on the drive side for the three speed cog. When I place the original washers in their position as found when I disassembled, there isn't enough room for the axle to slide into the drop out with enough leftover for the indicator chain bolt (the name escapes me right now). If I remove spacing washers, the tube is too close to the cog set which results in chain rub. Any thoughts? I'm new to setting these up so it's a bit confusing. Did I somehow move the axle too far toward the non drive side? Photo:
Go on ebay and search for 3 speed freewheel. Costs about 10 bucks . The block is easily compact enough to give you lots of clearance.

3 speed freewheel on a 1946 SA IGH 4 speed.

Last edited by Johno59; 06-08-19 at 10:00 AM.
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Old 06-08-19, 10:06 AM
  #20623  
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Hi DQ,
Been anticipating your winter project for a while. Thought maybe your prang was worse than you let on.
Good to see you back. Can't wait to see your latest masterpiece.!
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Old 06-08-19, 04:49 PM
  #20624  
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Originally Posted by jackbombay View Post
I hadn't considered that being a point of failure, I was figuring that something inside the hub would give first. To shear off 3 of the splines on the cog would really take some torque though, the cog is hardened steel.



Out of the bike would be more precise, you could make a couple of chunks of 2x4 with a hole drilled in them and cut them in half so you could clamp the steer tube in a vice then work one leg at a time, you could put a long 2x4 between the legs of the fork to pry on the end of one leg with the other end of the 2x4 right up against the fork crown.
They don't sheer off. If there's too much play between the shims and the circlip, the round splines will tip side to side, want to cam up and make a mess of the channels in the driver. Or, if the fit is too tight, it's possible to think the circlip is seated when it isn't fully. There was one other failure I saw from a member on this board. He had a crunched sun gear. No idea what caused it and I have never seen this myself, but I have seen buggered up spline channels on drivers a couple of times. Both from loose fitting cogs I believe and I dont think they were under anything close to the stress you're talking about.
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Old 06-08-19, 07:00 PM
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jackbombay
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Originally Posted by BigChief View Post
They don't sheer off. If there's too much play between the shims and the circlip, the round splines will tip side to side, want to cam up and make a mess of the channels in the driver. Or, if the fit is too tight, it's possible to think the circlip is seated when it isn't fully. There was one other failure I saw from a member on this board. He had a crunched sun gear. No idea what caused it and I have never seen this myself, but I have seen buggered up spline channels on drivers a couple of times. Both from loose fitting cogs I believe and I dont think they were under anything close to the stress you're talking about.
My cog fits the driver well, no slop, and the circlip fits well in it's groove.

There are certainly other 28 hole AW hubs for sale on Ebay, so worst case scenario if this one fails I can get another.
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