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For the love of English 3 speeds...

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For the love of English 3 speeds...

Old 09-13-19, 02:09 PM
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Originally Posted by adventurepdx
And in the case of a British Three Speed: Don't forget your spanner!
Vintage bike, vintage tool. This gem is a 3-in-1 tool and is meant for my proper British machine.

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Old 09-13-19, 03:51 PM
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The All British Cycle Event (ABCE) is this weekend. Gather at Merlin's Rest (Minneapolis) tomorrom morning at 9:AM.

Sunday is the swap meet, Gravity Race and Show and Lie

I plan to bring my '54 Bates, '61 Sports, a nice cheap Superbe anda bunch of parts...
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Old 09-14-19, 05:50 AM
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Old 09-14-19, 06:48 AM
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"no date code" sturmey-archer "aw" hub

After some more research and getting advice and insight from BF members, l have determined the year of my "AW" hub. Although some early S-A hubs were without a date code stamped on them, there are a few from the 40's and 50's that were also sans date codes. My particular hub is clearly stamped with "AW", but no date. This model was made only during WW2, 1941-42, and is identifiable by the left side "ball cup" having a factory black painted finish (ensure that it has factory paint, looks almost anodized), the patina will be obvious. Also, it will have a threaded on drive sprocket, not splined! Apparently, there is another group of hubs from the 50's without a date code, but having a silver finish on left cup with a splined sprocket mount. My hub is on a Raleigh Sports Tourist having a serial number (J26399) interpolated to be from 1930-1933, so it is not original to the frame if the frame is indeed from the 30's. If anyone has a 1941-1942 bike with a similar hub I would be interested to know for further confirmation.

I am also still trying to confirm the year(s) of manufacture for the "DYNOHUB" on the same bike. I have yet to see an example of this front hub. If someone has this hub original to their frame, I again would be interested in order to determine my hub's vintage. My hub has no markings in the center portion where the terminal lugs protrude. Markings appear on the "middle" ring, which appears to have been factory painted silver with a black band incorporating silver print and "diamonds". The main hub "shell" is chrome finish with "32" (spoke count) stamped on the left side.
One terminal lug post is broken. Is this repairable? I have not yet dismantled to determine the viability of repairing the hub.

Thanks again for all the help and advice.
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Old 09-14-19, 07:19 AM
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Originally Posted by gster
My Cyclo is a 1949 model 3 speed unit. It has a date code. I think your sheet shows later units. I only wish that the AW could handle more teeth on the big cog for steeper hills, but it still helps.
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Old 09-14-19, 09:38 AM
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Originally Posted by HPL
After some more research and getting advice and insight from BF members, l have determined the year of my "AW" hub. Although some early S-A hubs were without a date code stamped on them, there are a few from the 40's and 50's that were also sans date codes. My particular hub is clearly stamped with "AW", but no date. This model was made only during WW2, 1941-42, and is identifiable by the left side "ball cup" having a factory black painted finish (ensure that it has factory paint, looks almost anodized), the patina will be obvious. Also, it will have a threaded on drive sprocket, not splined! Apparently, there is another group of hubs from the 50's without a date code, but having a silver finish on left cup with a splined sprocket mount. My hub is on a Raleigh Sports Tourist having a serial number (J26399) interpolated to be from 1930-1933, so it is not original to the frame if the frame is indeed from the 30's. If anyone has a 1941-1942 bike with a similar hub I would be interested to know for further confirmation.

I am also still trying to confirm the year(s) of manufacture for the "DYNOHUB" on the same bike. I have yet to see an example of this front hub. If someone has this hub original to their frame, I again would be interested in order to determine my hub's vintage. My hub has no markings in the center portion where the terminal lugs protrude. Markings appear on the "middle" ring, which appears to have been factory painted silver with a black band incorporating silver print and "diamonds". The main hub "shell" is chrome finish with "32" (spoke count) stamped on the left side.
One terminal lug post is broken. Is this repairable? I have not yet dismantled to determine the viability of repairing the hub.

Thanks again for all the help and advice.
If you go back a page and check out the 1940 catalog page I posted you'll see an image of the Dynohub in the lower left corner. It matches yours exactly. I never noticed the difference before. So all I can say with certainty is that sometime between 1940 and 1951, they redesigned it. I don't know how to deal with the broken pole. You are not supposed to remove the magnet so there's no way to get at it from behind. Maybe it could be drilled and tapped from the front. Splined cogs on AW hubs started around 1952-3. My 51 has a threaded driver. There's a good rebuild video on youtube for Dynohubs.
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Old 09-14-19, 12:44 PM
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Originally Posted by BigChief
If you go back a page and check out the 1940 catalog page I posted you'll see an image of the Dynohub in the lower left corner. It matches yours exactly. I never noticed the difference before. So all I can say with certainty is that sometime between 1940 and 1951, they redesigned it. I don't know how to deal with the broken pole. You are not supposed to remove the magnet so there's no way to get at it from behind. Maybe it could be drilled and tapped from the front. Splined cogs on AW hubs started around 1952-3. My 51 has a threaded driver. There's a good rebuild video on youtube for Dynohubs.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2SnEkpU0YeU
Thanks again for your help Big Chief, I had not taken a close look at that image of the hub, nor is my viewing device very good for seeing details; not good for taking photos either as apparent by my previous posts. It could very well be that both wheels assy's were replaced at the same time and are of the same vintage. I would still like to see a photo image if someone has one referenced to a known frame/year.
Taking a quick look at the men's frame shows it to be a different model; fenders are different, head tube lugs are not "fishtail" cut-out, "bolt-on" seatstays, serial # AD99185, but another no date "AW" hub, no front "dyno". Photos forthcoming.
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Old 09-14-19, 04:03 PM
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Originally Posted by HPL
Thanks again for your help Big Chief, I had not taken a close look at that image of the hub, nor is my viewing device very good for seeing details; not good for taking photos either as apparent by my previous posts. It could very well be that both wheels assy's were replaced at the same time and are of the same vintage. I would still like to see a photo image if someone has one referenced to a known frame/year.
Taking a quick look at the men's frame shows it to be a different model; fenders are different, head tube lugs are not "fishtail" cut-out, "bolt-on" seatstays, serial # AD99185, but another no date "AW" hub, no front "dyno". Photos forthcoming.
I'm afraid serial numbers out of Nottingham aren't reliable. I'm sure the frame is post 1935. It has the more modern rear dropouts. A feature you could use to establish a latest date would be the flat ended fork legs. This was changed to brazed in dropouts early on, not sure when, but my 51 are brazed in. Maybe someone here will know when this change happened. I think all the parts are original to the frame and it dates to the late 30s or early 40s.
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Old 09-15-19, 03:00 AM
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SA hubs in 1933,34 and 35? had no date stamps. Before that they were stamped K. The AW- 3 was introduced in 1936. K went back to before WW1 and up until 1914 they were stamped with an X. It is unlikely (but not impossible) that the hub is older than the frame as frames go forever but hubs require some care to keep going for 80 years. I found the Raleigh frame serial # archive very accurate. Sunbeam as well. Rudge is completely useless but the pictorial catalogue for Rudge is probably the best.

Last edited by Johno59; 09-15-19 at 03:37 AM.
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Old 09-15-19, 04:04 AM
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Originally Posted by HPL
After some more research and getting advice and insight from BF members, l have determined the year of my "AW" hub. Although some early S-A hubs were without a date code stamped on them, there are a few from the 40's and 50's that were also sans date codes. My particular hub is clearly stamped with "AW", but no date. This model was made only during WW2, 1941-42, and is identifiable by the left side "ball cup" having a factory black painted finish (ensure that it has factory paint, looks almost anodized), the patina will be obvious. Also, it will have a threaded on drive sprocket, not splined! Apparently, there is another group of hubs from the 50's without a date code, but having a silver finish on left cup with a splined sprocket mount. My hub is on a Raleigh Sports Tourist having a serial number (J26399) interpolated to be from 1930-1933, so it is not original to the frame if the frame is indeed from the 30's. If anyone has a 1941-1942 bike with a similar hub I would be interested to know for further confirmation.

I am also still trying to confirm the year(s) of manufacture for the "DYNOHUB" on the same bike. I have yet to see an example of this front hub. If someone has this hub original to their frame, I again would be interested in order to determine my hub's vintage. My hub has no markings in the center portion where the terminal lugs protrude. Markings appear on the "middle" ring, which appears to have been factory painted silver with a black band incorporating silver print and "diamonds". The main hub "shell" is chrome finish with "32" (spoke count) stamped on the left side.
One terminal lug post is broken. Is this repairable? I have not yet dismantled to determine the viability of repairing the hub.

Thanks again for all the help and advice.
J 26399 is a 1933 frame. The front dynohub would have Z curled spokes on the lower side originally and keyhole eyelets if slightly older. The original rear hub would have no date stamp.
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Old 09-15-19, 06:21 AM
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This is the pre-1936 frame

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Old 09-15-19, 06:27 AM
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and the "light roadster version of 1935

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Old 09-15-19, 08:15 AM
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Originally Posted by Ged117
My Cyclo is a 1949 model 3 speed unit. It has a date code. I think your sheet shows later units. I only wish that the AW could handle more teeth on the big cog for steeper hills, but it still helps.
Why canít the AW handle bigger tooth counts? Does this limitation also apply to the FM, FG, and FW?
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Old 09-15-19, 12:11 PM
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Originally Posted by gster
I have a Sprite w/ the 5 speed hub.
I added the double throttle shifters.

I find if the bike sits for awhile w/ both shifters on the "off" position,
i.e both forward, the secondary shifter will not engage easily.
The bike now rests with the primary "off" i.e. in third and the secondary
shifter engaged.
Seems to keep the hub freed up.

I can certainly appreciate the stock equipment, but I do much prefer the trigger shifters for functionality. I'm going to go full resto-mod on my sprite build so there will be many parts that are not stock when I'm done, so not having the stock shifters is fine with me.
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Old 09-15-19, 12:11 PM
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Originally Posted by Road Fan
Why canít the AW handle bigger tooth counts? Does this limitation also apply to the FM, FG, and FW?
The AW 9 (9 = 1939) are screw on sprocket, so any size is possible. On my 1903 Sunbeam I put on a SA 4 speed, a 3 speed freewheel, a Resilion derailleur and the original 2 speed direct dive. All up 24 speed.

Last edited by Johno59; 09-15-19 at 12:15 PM.
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Old 09-15-19, 12:13 PM
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Originally Posted by Road Fan
Why canít the AW handle bigger tooth counts? Does this limitation also apply to the FM, FG, and FW?
Sturmey recommends no lower than a 2:1 ratio, 48/24, but sheldon brown talks about using cassette cogs larger than 24 to get lower gearing. I'm sure you can go lower than 2:1 if you are a lighter guy, I'd bet you can go way lower than 2:1 if you just avoid standing and pedaling in 1st gear on steep hills.
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Old 09-15-19, 12:19 PM
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Originally Posted by gster
I have a Sprite w/ the 5 speed hub.
I added the double throttle shifters.

I find if the bike sits for awhile w/ both shifters on the "off" position,
i.e both forward, the secondary shifter will not engage easily.
The bike now rests with the primary "off" i.e. in third and the secondary
shifter engaged.
Seems to keep the hub freed up.
God I love those old SA push pull shifters
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Old 09-15-19, 12:28 PM
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112 geared SA

Originally Posted by jackbombay
Sturmey recommends no lower than a 2:1 ratio, 48/24, but sheldon brown talks about using cassette cogs larger than 24 to get lower gearing. I'm sure you can go lower than 2:1 if you are a lighter guy, I'd bet you can go way lower than 2:1 if you just avoid standing and pedaling in 1st gear on steep hills.
Sheldon Brown made a 105 geared bike with a IGH SA 5 speed, a screw on 7 speed FW and a front triple crankset.
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Old 09-15-19, 01:26 PM
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Originally Posted by Johno59
Sheldon Brown made a 105 geared bike with a IGH SA 5 speed, a screw on 7 speed FW and a front triple crankset.
I haven't quite gone that over the top, but I did confirm that a 5-speed freewheel fits fine on a threaded driver with a 6 1/4" axle (the longer one to fit in a 120mm-spaced rear end). Didn't see the need to put that in actual use, however.
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Old 09-15-19, 02:10 PM
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15 speed works in East Anglia
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Old 09-15-19, 04:36 PM
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Six Speed Conversion Sh*t Show
What I thought would be a simple project has
been somewhat frustrating but there is a light
at the end of the tunnel....

I set the bike up yesterday and bought a 3/32" 10 speed chain assuming the 1/2" pitch
would be compatible.
It wasn't.
It binds on the chain ring and refused to engage the smaller cog..
I'd had enough and let it be.
Today I added a couple of washers to the derailleur rollers to expand
the width to accept a standard 1/8" chain.
All seemed good.
Until I installed the master link which now
catches on the derailleur cage


I'm not dissuaded. The 3/32" chain was only $15.00 and the
1/8" chain was cobbled together from a couple I had lying around.

Tomorrow's another day......
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Old 09-15-19, 04:42 PM
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If you use to low of gears on a SA AW you can put more power input into the hub than the 4 small planetary gears inside the hub can handle and they break in half. As some one like me who grew up riding 3 speed in the 1960s I got good at replacing them. Roger
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Old 09-15-19, 05:58 PM
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Phillips, Schwinn, and Raleigh 3-speeds.







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Old 09-15-19, 06:45 PM
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Originally Posted by gster
Six Speed Conversion Sh*t Show
What I thought would be a simple project has
been somewhat frustrating but there is a light
at the end of the tunnel....

I set the bike up yesterday and bought a 3/32" 10 speed chain assuming the 1/2" pitch
would be compatible.
It wasn't.
It binds on the chain ring and refused to engage the smaller cog..
I'd had enough and let it be.
Today I added a couple of washers to the derailleur rollers to expand
the width to accept a standard 1/8" chain.
All seemed good.
Until I installed the master link which now
catches on the derailleur cage


I'm not dissuaded. The 3/32" chain was only $15.00 and the
1/8" chain was cobbled together from a couple I had lying around.

Tomorrow's another day......
How about pressing in a regular link instead of using the master link. I know you're not supposed to reuse a chain pin after it's been pressed out, but it's one of those things that might be against the rules but seems to work fine.
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Old 09-15-19, 07:02 PM
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Originally Posted by BigChief
How about pressing in a regular link instead of using the master link. I know you're not supposed to reuse a chain pin after it's been pressed out, but it's one of those things that might be against the rules but seems to work fine.
I was thinking that as well.
I've done it before....
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