For the love of English 3 speeds...
01-22-21, 12:47 PM
The dropped
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Location: Columbus, OH
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Bikes: Pake C'Mute Touring/Commuter Build, 1989 Kona Cinder Cone, 1995 Trek 5200, 1973 Raleigh Super Course FG, 1960/61 Montgomery Ward Hawthorne "thrift" 3 speed, by Hercules (sold) : 1966 Schwinn Deluxe Racer (sold)
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Dunelt on fleabay:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/LADIES-1960-VINTAGE-DUNELT-BICYCLE
LADIES 1960 VINTAGE DUNELT BICYCLE Made In England 3 speed - EXCELLENT CONDITION
Starting bid:
US $1,999.00
Price:
US $2,599.00 Buy it Now
When I see stuff like this it makes me wonder if all their selling is a bicycle. Do ads like this ever really get a buyer?
(If that thing is worth $2500, my men's version has to be worth double.)
https://www.ebay.com/itm/LADIES-1960-VINTAGE-DUNELT-BICYCLE
LADIES 1960 VINTAGE DUNELT BICYCLE Made In England 3 speed - EXCELLENT CONDITION
Starting bid:
US $1,999.00
Price:
US $2,599.00 Buy it Now
When I see stuff like this it makes me wonder if all their selling is a bicycle. Do ads like this ever really get a buyer?
(If that thing is worth $2500, my men's version has to be worth double.)
01-22-21, 07:01 PM
Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Toronto
Posts: 2,557
Bikes: 1971 Hercules, 1978 Raleigh Superbe, 1978 Raleigh Tourist, 1964 Glider 3 Speed, 1967 Raleigh Sprite 5 Speed, 1968 Hercules AMF 3 Speed, 1972 Raleigh Superbe, 1976 Raleigh Superbe, 1957 Flying Pigeon, 1967 Dunelt 3 Speed
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The seller couldn't even be bothered to get the head lamp working.
I'm going in low at $2250.00!
I'm going in low at $2250.00!
01-23-21, 03:46 AM
Junior Member
There's a few local seller with the same marketing theory lately, run of the mill bikes from the 60's or 70's marked up to $800 or more claiming them to be 'classics'.
I can understand it on CL, the ads are free, but some yahoo is paying to advertise that ladies Raleigh at that price expecting a buyer.
That costs money, so does the BIN tag and price.
A number of years ago there was a guy selling what amounted to complete junk on fleabay, it turned out that those ads were his way of selling and shipping contraband under the guise of an eBay sale.
It got figured out when someone's kid bid and paid for the item unknowingly and received a surprise in the mail.
Years ago 'people' would to sell rocks or old lug nuts for $5 at various events, buy a rock, get a free beer.... You were allowed to sell rocks, but not beer. They sold a lot of rocks. It was right after they banned selling beer at the events. They weren't selling beer, they sold rocks, the beer was free. Perfectly legal.
My guess is ads like that bike have something similar going on.
01-23-21, 04:01 AM
Junior Member
To add to the SW/AW discussion, according to Tony Hadland (who seems to be *the* authority on Sturmey Archer history), his notes on the SW start with "About 1954/55, Sturmey-Archer withdrew the AW three speed...[and] was replaced by the SW...". Withdrew implies not making them anymore, however later Tony notes: "...the decision was made to cease production of the SW and reinstate the tried and trusted AW. In 1958 the AW returned to the range and by 1960 the SW, like a bad dream, had all but vanished." This implies no AWs between 1955 and 1957 (inclusive).
All sounds good except that I have a bike with a 56 AW, and barnfind also has a 56 AW. So it does appear that while the marketing department wanted to see the SW replace the AW it appears that AWs continued to be available during the "blackout". My opinion is that as the poor reliability of the SW made itself known in 1955 and into 1956, manufacturers demanded supplies of more reliable hubs and the factory either used up spares or started up the AW manufacturing in 1956 while publicly pretending the SW was still going to make it. Its telling that it took until 1960 to stop making the SW even after the AW was reintroduced officially.
I got my quotes from Hadland's book "The Sturmey Archer Story".
All sounds good except that I have a bike with a 56 AW, and barnfind also has a 56 AW. So it does appear that while the marketing department wanted to see the SW replace the AW it appears that AWs continued to be available during the "blackout". My opinion is that as the poor reliability of the SW made itself known in 1955 and into 1956, manufacturers demanded supplies of more reliable hubs and the factory either used up spares or started up the AW manufacturing in 1956 while publicly pretending the SW was still going to make it. Its telling that it took until 1960 to stop making the SW even after the AW was reintroduced officially.
I got my quotes from Hadland's book "The Sturmey Archer Story".
I've seen a mix of Sturmey Archer branded hubs and Schwinn Approved hubs on those year Schwinn bikes.
The Schwinn Approved hubs can be "Made in England" or "Made in Austria".
I have a 1957 Schwinn Racer with a 3 speed Schwinn Approved AW hub, the catalog that year advertised Sturmey Archer gears.
I've worked on and owned dozens of late 50's Schwinn bikes and never saw an SW hub on a Schwinn, 90% of the three speed lightweights were Sturmey Archer.
Either SA kept building the AW hub, or some manufacturers had one hell of an inventory to keep the going with AW hubs during those years. Keep in mind that those bikes were 36 spoke models, not 40.
01-23-21, 04:24 AM
Junior Member
I have one that is modified in the manner described on Sheldon Brown's web site. The flat springs under the pawls do provide reliable engagement of the pawls, but the springs themselves are wear items; as the pawl moves on the spring, it eventually erodes through it and the spring will no longer ensure engagement of the pawl. That's as close as I've managed to getting an SW as reliable as an AW.
The problem there yet again would be proper hardening of the components.
The SW works 'sort of okay' if all parts are 100%, but as soon as any part is compromised or the oil becomes too thick, its a crap shoot.
I have one bike with a brand new SW hub, its perfectly fine to ride on warm sunny days, it functions as it should about 95% of the time. Its that other 5% of the time that's the real issue. You can have total slippage, partial binding, or just a bad or incomplete shift. After a bit of riding you do get the 'feel' for when it didn't engage fully or is about to slip but my feeling is that why bother with something that's so inconsistent when a simple AW upgrade makes everything as it should be without any concern of eating asphalt due to a hub slipping into neutral without warning or having to be 'careful' about how you shift or apply pedal pressure in fear of taking a header.
SW hubs are perfectly fine for hub collections and museum pieces that don't get ridden, beyond that, get an AW.
01-23-21, 04:31 AM
Junior Member
In my search for rims I found these yesterday at defunct bike shop, they're all 36h, they're a bit wider than a Sturmey Archer or Dunlop Endrick rim but not by much. 2mm at best due to s slight sidewall flare.
They're marked 26x1 3/8" Beretta Made in Italy. The guy has these in pairs as a built front wheel and a bare rim to build a matching rear.
He said they all came from a bike shop that closed in 1972, they've been in boxes in his trailer ever since.
The boxes are unmarked and have Italia Post labels on them, so they were direct imported in those boxes, three pair per box, three fronts, three bare rims. They're not what I was after but I'm curious as to what they fit or if they came on any bikes back in the day?
I don't remember seeing these before. Each of the boxes had 14 "Pacci Postale 1000 Lira" stamps on each one addressed to a bike shop in NJ. They looked like they had been there for a long time. I wish they were 32/40h rims though. I left them but will be going back for a few other items he's got which I didn't have room for in the car.
He also had quite a few 27" rims new in the box, maybe 30 boxes or so of them, in various brands.
"26X1 3/8 BERETTA MADE IN ITALY"
They're marked 26x1 3/8" Beretta Made in Italy. The guy has these in pairs as a built front wheel and a bare rim to build a matching rear.
He said they all came from a bike shop that closed in 1972, they've been in boxes in his trailer ever since.
The boxes are unmarked and have Italia Post labels on them, so they were direct imported in those boxes, three pair per box, three fronts, three bare rims. They're not what I was after but I'm curious as to what they fit or if they came on any bikes back in the day?
I don't remember seeing these before. Each of the boxes had 14 "Pacci Postale 1000 Lira" stamps on each one addressed to a bike shop in NJ. They looked like they had been there for a long time. I wish they were 32/40h rims though. I left them but will be going back for a few other items he's got which I didn't have room for in the car.
He also had quite a few 27" rims new in the box, maybe 30 boxes or so of them, in various brands.
"26X1 3/8 BERETTA MADE IN ITALY"
You can find those branded as Beretta and Joannou. They were decent rims, likely more common in the European market than the US.
I've seen them in 26x1 3/8" and 27" over the years. The chrome was decent but I've seen a few with peeling chrome but the rim itself was a decent double wall design similar to Rigida or Dunlop. They were a 'go too' universal replacement rim before Chinese junk became the norm.
01-23-21, 04:41 AM
Junior Member
I found a 40h Dunlop rear rim yesterday for the Dunelt, the hub is dated 3-57. Its not perfect, but likely a good match to the existing front rim on the bike now. Its got some brake wear, not as much as the front rim but close. The hub in it now is marked SW not AW and has a smaller flange. The spokes are junk, too rusty to use but the rim and hub are usable. The guy who sold me the wheel said the hub is likely junk, he said none of the SW hubs were any good.
The same source has about 30 5 gallon buckets of old Sturmey Archer hubs, I dug through every one and all I found was two more 1957 hubs, a ton of 1969/70 dated hubs, and about 100 dated in 1954 and two dated 9-56. The closest I found to 1960, is a 6-62 that looks pretty clean. He had a few 1961 hubs but all were 36h. The hubs all have bits of spokes attached, he said they were cut out of auction bikes to use for parts. The guy's in his 90's and said he's been messing with old bikes all his life. He's got two 40ft trailers packed full of parts in buckets, boxes, and barrels.
I think the consensus is that the bike is a 1960 due to the style of forks but I had no luck finding a 59 or 60 dated hub shell as of yet.
Were there ever 1959 or 1960 AW hubs? Did the SW and AW coexist at the same time?
Also, where to find spokes? were these originally cross 3 or 4 pattern?
What length spokes for an AW and a Dunlop rim? The old guy I got the rim from said he thinks they were 11 1/8" spokes but he only had 6 old Torrington branded spokes in a box there.
The old spokes were badly rusted, and the hub in there now is a Komet coaster brake, so they won't work.
The spokes in the rim I found are for an sw hub and also badly rusted with a half dozen mismatched spoke nipples so those won't be of any use either.
I called around to about a dozen bike shops and most don't sell spokes, the few that do wanted more than a dollar each. The last time I bought spokes years ago I think I re-spoked two wheels for $8. That wasn't all that long ago. I'm not paying $45-$50 to re-spoke one wheel.
I stripped the rim down and it lays flat so its in decent shape that way. I did break loose the hub end caps so I can open it up to see what shape its in.
The single rim isn't the ideal fix but it does match the front wheel well. I'd rather find a perfect wheelset but I don't see that happening and so far this one wheel is the best I've seen so far if I want to keep it original.
I'm leaning toward using the '62 AW hub in the pic below but am thinking about using the SW hub because it may be closer to the correct year for the bike.
SW on right is the one I removed from the wheel today.
Compared to existing front rim
The same source has about 30 5 gallon buckets of old Sturmey Archer hubs, I dug through every one and all I found was two more 1957 hubs, a ton of 1969/70 dated hubs, and about 100 dated in 1954 and two dated 9-56. The closest I found to 1960, is a 6-62 that looks pretty clean. He had a few 1961 hubs but all were 36h. The hubs all have bits of spokes attached, he said they were cut out of auction bikes to use for parts. The guy's in his 90's and said he's been messing with old bikes all his life. He's got two 40ft trailers packed full of parts in buckets, boxes, and barrels.
I think the consensus is that the bike is a 1960 due to the style of forks but I had no luck finding a 59 or 60 dated hub shell as of yet.
Were there ever 1959 or 1960 AW hubs? Did the SW and AW coexist at the same time?
Also, where to find spokes? were these originally cross 3 or 4 pattern?
What length spokes for an AW and a Dunlop rim? The old guy I got the rim from said he thinks they were 11 1/8" spokes but he only had 6 old Torrington branded spokes in a box there.
The old spokes were badly rusted, and the hub in there now is a Komet coaster brake, so they won't work.
The spokes in the rim I found are for an sw hub and also badly rusted with a half dozen mismatched spoke nipples so those won't be of any use either.
I called around to about a dozen bike shops and most don't sell spokes, the few that do wanted more than a dollar each. The last time I bought spokes years ago I think I re-spoked two wheels for $8. That wasn't all that long ago. I'm not paying $45-$50 to re-spoke one wheel.
I stripped the rim down and it lays flat so its in decent shape that way. I did break loose the hub end caps so I can open it up to see what shape its in.
The single rim isn't the ideal fix but it does match the front wheel well. I'd rather find a perfect wheelset but I don't see that happening and so far this one wheel is the best I've seen so far if I want to keep it original.
I'm leaning toward using the '62 AW hub in the pic below but am thinking about using the SW hub because it may be closer to the correct year for the bike.
SW on right is the one I removed from the wheel today.
Compared to existing front rim
I've also got a few barrels of old AW hubs that haven't been sorted out, there's bound to be a few 59-60 hubs in there worth rebuilding if your willing to do some digging and sorting. I think I've got four or five 55 gallon barrels full of SA hubs out back. There may even be a few used wheels still out there that can be cleaned up and used as is.
01-23-21, 10:07 AM
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Location: Toronto
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Bikes: 1971 Hercules, 1978 Raleigh Superbe, 1978 Raleigh Tourist, 1964 Glider 3 Speed, 1967 Raleigh Sprite 5 Speed, 1968 Hercules AMF 3 Speed, 1972 Raleigh Superbe, 1976 Raleigh Superbe, 1957 Flying Pigeon, 1967 Dunelt 3 Speed
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Headlight working? Your lucky its got air in the tires. They did spring for some cheezy streamers and some Hunt Wilde grips off some old Huffy I suppose.
There's a few local seller with the same marketing theory lately, run of the mill bikes from the 60's or 70's marked up to $800 or more claiming them to be 'classics'.
I can understand it on CL, the ads are free, but some yahoo is paying to advertise that ladies Raleigh at that price expecting a buyer.
That costs money, so does the BIN tag and price.
A number of years ago there was a guy selling what amounted to complete junk on fleabay, it turned out that those ads were his way of selling and shipping contraband under the guise of an eBay sale.
It got figured out when someone's kid bid and paid for the item unknowingly and received a surprise in the mail.
Years ago 'people' would to sell rocks or old lug nuts for $5 at various events, buy a rock, get a free beer.... You were allowed to sell rocks, but not beer. They sold a lot of rocks. It was right after they banned selling beer at the events. They weren't selling beer, they sold rocks, the beer was free. Perfectly legal.
My guess is ads like that bike have something similar going on.
There's a few local seller with the same marketing theory lately, run of the mill bikes from the 60's or 70's marked up to $800 or more claiming them to be 'classics'.
I can understand it on CL, the ads are free, but some yahoo is paying to advertise that ladies Raleigh at that price expecting a buyer.
That costs money, so does the BIN tag and price.
A number of years ago there was a guy selling what amounted to complete junk on fleabay, it turned out that those ads were his way of selling and shipping contraband under the guise of an eBay sale.
It got figured out when someone's kid bid and paid for the item unknowingly and received a surprise in the mail.
Years ago 'people' would to sell rocks or old lug nuts for $5 at various events, buy a rock, get a free beer.... You were allowed to sell rocks, but not beer. They sold a lot of rocks. It was right after they banned selling beer at the events. They weren't selling beer, they sold rocks, the beer was free. Perfectly legal.
My guess is ads like that bike have something similar going on.
I removed some parts I didn't like (kickstand etc) and the original seller came back and bought them.....
Go figure
as stolen....
01-24-21, 01:51 PM
vintage rider
Did Raleigh ever build a 27" five speed Sprite in 1969 with an S5 hub?
I just looked at a beer bottle brown Sprite, 27" wheels spoked 32/40 hole, with an S5 hub dated 69-5.
It had the normal hockey stick chain guard, matching brown fenders, steel calipers and levers same as the 26" models, and a Brooks vinyl saddle.
The bike is borderline rough with rusty fenders, the seller is asking $200 as-is. It rides, but it's going to need a complete going over, new tires, and likely some rust removal and paint touch up.
He had another one there in black but that one's not for sale. The fenders look like those used on a 28" Raleigh roadster.
I didn't get a pic, (I took one but it was so dark in the garage there it didn't come out on my phone with no flash).
I just looked at a beer bottle brown Sprite, 27" wheels spoked 32/40 hole, with an S5 hub dated 69-5.
It had the normal hockey stick chain guard, matching brown fenders, steel calipers and levers same as the 26" models, and a Brooks vinyl saddle.
The bike is borderline rough with rusty fenders, the seller is asking $200 as-is. It rides, but it's going to need a complete going over, new tires, and likely some rust removal and paint touch up.
He had another one there in black but that one's not for sale. The fenders look like those used on a 28" Raleigh roadster.
I didn't get a pic, (I took one but it was so dark in the garage there it didn't come out on my phone with no flash).
01-24-21, 02:27 PM
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Did Raleigh ever build a 27" five speed Sprite in 1969 with an S5 hub?
I just looked at a beer bottle brown Sprite, 27" wheels spoked 32/40 hole, with an S5 hub dated 69-5.
It had the normal hockey stick chain guard, matching brown fenders, steel calipers and levers same as the 26" models, and a Brooks vinyl saddle.
The bike is borderline rough with rusty fenders, the seller is asking $200 as-is. It rides, but it's going to need a complete going over, new tires, and likely some rust removal and paint touch up.
He had another one there in black but that one's not for sale. The fenders look like those used on a 28" Raleigh roadster.
I didn't get a pic, (I took one but it was so dark in the garage there it didn't come out on my phone with no flash).
I just looked at a beer bottle brown Sprite, 27" wheels spoked 32/40 hole, with an S5 hub dated 69-5.
It had the normal hockey stick chain guard, matching brown fenders, steel calipers and levers same as the 26" models, and a Brooks vinyl saddle.
The bike is borderline rough with rusty fenders, the seller is asking $200 as-is. It rides, but it's going to need a complete going over, new tires, and likely some rust removal and paint touch up.
He had another one there in black but that one's not for sale. The fenders look like those used on a 28" Raleigh roadster.
I didn't get a pic, (I took one but it was so dark in the garage there it didn't come out on my phone with no flash).
https://www.sheldonbrown.com/retrora...9/pages/03.htm
01-24-21, 03:03 PM
vintage rider
The one I'm looking at is brown, with the decal style similar to a 69-70 Sports model but with 27" wheels, and a 23 1/2" frame size.
The same seller has a black one just like it, both have 1969 dated S5 hubs.
The fenders look like the round top fenders used on a rod brake model, but in dark brown metallic.
At first I was taken back by the price but after looking on fleabay and seeing what a few S5 hubs and shifter belcranks sold for there I see where he came up with the price. The worst thing about the bike is that its been sitting and its got the typical rust issues. Nothing structural, just rusty spots all over the fenders and on all the hardware.
I'd sort of just assume it were a three speed, I've had a few S5 bikes in the past and really never saw the need for the added two gears.
If it were cleaner, I'd have likely just forked over the cash because it fit me but the rusty bits just looked like too much work and if its a made up combo, I might as well just build one myself from an old clunker.
I've considered building up something similar with an AW hub, a pair of wider alloy 27" rims and an old road frame but all the road frames I've got lying around are for 700C wheels. Also, finding 32/40h rims might be tough too.
The same seller has a black one just like it, both have 1969 dated S5 hubs.
The fenders look like the round top fenders used on a rod brake model, but in dark brown metallic.
At first I was taken back by the price but after looking on fleabay and seeing what a few S5 hubs and shifter belcranks sold for there I see where he came up with the price. The worst thing about the bike is that its been sitting and its got the typical rust issues. Nothing structural, just rusty spots all over the fenders and on all the hardware.
I'd sort of just assume it were a three speed, I've had a few S5 bikes in the past and really never saw the need for the added two gears.
If it were cleaner, I'd have likely just forked over the cash because it fit me but the rusty bits just looked like too much work and if its a made up combo, I might as well just build one myself from an old clunker.
I've considered building up something similar with an AW hub, a pair of wider alloy 27" rims and an old road frame but all the road frames I've got lying around are for 700C wheels. Also, finding 32/40h rims might be tough too.
01-25-21, 11:26 AM
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Location: Toronto
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Bikes: 1971 Hercules, 1978 Raleigh Superbe, 1978 Raleigh Tourist, 1964 Glider 3 Speed, 1967 Raleigh Sprite 5 Speed, 1968 Hercules AMF 3 Speed, 1972 Raleigh Superbe, 1976 Raleigh Superbe, 1957 Flying Pigeon, 1967 Dunelt 3 Speed
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A couple of recent Toronto listings;
A tall Raleigh Superbe @ $300.00.
And a J.C. Higgins 3 speed @ $150.00.
I assume S/A equipped.
A tall Raleigh Superbe @ $300.00.
And a J.C. Higgins 3 speed @ $150.00.
I assume S/A equipped.
01-26-21, 05:59 AM
Junior Member
The one I'm looking at is brown, with the decal style similar to a 69-70 Sports model but with 27" wheels, and a 23 1/2" frame size.
The same seller has a black one just like it, both have 1969 dated S5 hubs.
The fenders look like the round top fenders used on a rod brake model, but in dark brown metallic.
At first I was taken back by the price but after looking on fleabay and seeing what a few S5 hubs and shifter belcranks sold for there I see where he came up with the price. The worst thing about the bike is that its been sitting and its got the typical rust issues. Nothing structural, just rusty spots all over the fenders and on all the hardware.
I'd sort of just assume it were a three speed, I've had a few S5 bikes in the past and really never saw the need for the added two gears.
If it were cleaner, I'd have likely just forked over the cash because it fit me but the rusty bits just looked like too much work and if its a made up combo, I might as well just build one myself from an old clunker.
I've considered building up something similar with an AW hub, a pair of wider alloy 27" rims and an old road frame but all the road frames I've got lying around are for 700C wheels. Also, finding 32/40h rims might be tough too.
The same seller has a black one just like it, both have 1969 dated S5 hubs.
The fenders look like the round top fenders used on a rod brake model, but in dark brown metallic.
At first I was taken back by the price but after looking on fleabay and seeing what a few S5 hubs and shifter belcranks sold for there I see where he came up with the price. The worst thing about the bike is that its been sitting and its got the typical rust issues. Nothing structural, just rusty spots all over the fenders and on all the hardware.
I'd sort of just assume it were a three speed, I've had a few S5 bikes in the past and really never saw the need for the added two gears.
If it were cleaner, I'd have likely just forked over the cash because it fit me but the rusty bits just looked like too much work and if its a made up combo, I might as well just build one myself from an old clunker.
I've considered building up something similar with an AW hub, a pair of wider alloy 27" rims and an old road frame but all the road frames I've got lying around are for 700C wheels. Also, finding 32/40h rims might be tough too.
It even had pump pegs on the frame. I've heard that the Sprite 27 bikes were just Grand Prix models with fenders, but the tubular fork crowns, pump pegs, and more laid back angles tell me that at least the early 27" models were a stand alone model.
I did see one ladies model a while back with a three speed coaster brake hub and no front brake. It was an extra small frame but still had 27" SA 32/40h rims and the round top fenders.
01-26-21, 07:44 AM
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01-26-21, 11:25 AM
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January's project was to rehab these 1930s-era English bike parts.
The Dynohub is a "Mark II", and it's a beast of a hub in terms of size and weight. But it's an interesting piece of Sturmey history, and not one that was produced for long before it was replaced by improved Dynohubs. The rear hub is a 1937 Model K that I overhauled. The bearings and cones were shot, apparently due to retaining water. Cups were passable, so I replaced the cones and bearings. The non-drive side had the three-piece felt seal. The felt was hardened due to age. I ended up going with AW-style cones that use metal dust caps.
The Dynohub is a "Mark II", and it's a beast of a hub in terms of size and weight. But it's an interesting piece of Sturmey history, and not one that was produced for long before it was replaced by improved Dynohubs. The rear hub is a 1937 Model K that I overhauled. The bearings and cones were shot, apparently due to retaining water. Cups were passable, so I replaced the cones and bearings. The non-drive side had the three-piece felt seal. The felt was hardened due to age. I ended up going with AW-style cones that use metal dust caps.
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Classic American and British Roadsters, Utility Bikes, and Sporting Bikes (1935-1979):
https://bikeshedva.blogspot.com/
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01-26-21, 12:55 PM
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The one I'm looking at is brown, with the decal style similar to a 69-70 Sports model but with 27" wheels, and a 23 1/2" frame size.
The same seller has a black one just like it, both have 1969 dated S5 hubs.
The fenders look like the round top fenders used on a rod brake model, but in dark brown metallic.
At first I was taken back by the price but after looking on fleabay and seeing what a few S5 hubs and shifter belcranks sold for there I see where he came up with the price. The worst thing about the bike is that its been sitting and its got the typical rust issues. Nothing structural, just rusty spots all over the fenders and on all the hardware.
I'd sort of just assume it were a three speed, I've had a few S5 bikes in the past and really never saw the need for the added two gears.
If it were cleaner, I'd have likely just forked over the cash because it fit me but the rusty bits just looked like too much work and if its a made up combo, I might as well just build one myself from an old clunker.
I've considered building up something similar with an AW hub, a pair of wider alloy 27" rims and an old road frame but all the road frames I've got lying around are for 700C wheels. Also, finding 32/40h rims might be tough too.
The same seller has a black one just like it, both have 1969 dated S5 hubs.
The fenders look like the round top fenders used on a rod brake model, but in dark brown metallic.
At first I was taken back by the price but after looking on fleabay and seeing what a few S5 hubs and shifter belcranks sold for there I see where he came up with the price. The worst thing about the bike is that its been sitting and its got the typical rust issues. Nothing structural, just rusty spots all over the fenders and on all the hardware.
I'd sort of just assume it were a three speed, I've had a few S5 bikes in the past and really never saw the need for the added two gears.
If it were cleaner, I'd have likely just forked over the cash because it fit me but the rusty bits just looked like too much work and if its a made up combo, I might as well just build one myself from an old clunker.
I've considered building up something similar with an AW hub, a pair of wider alloy 27" rims and an old road frame but all the road frames I've got lying around are for 700C wheels. Also, finding 32/40h rims might be tough too.
__________________
We are what we reflect. We are the changes that we bring to this world. Ride often. -Geo.-
We are what we reflect. We are the changes that we bring to this world. Ride often. -Geo.-
01-26-21, 02:12 PM
Junior Member
To add to the SW/AW discussion, according to Tony Hadland (who seems to be *the* authority on Sturmey Archer history), his notes on the SW start with "About 1954/55, Sturmey-Archer withdrew the AW three speed...[and] was replaced by the SW...". Withdrew implies not making them anymore, however later Tony notes: "...the decision was made to cease production of the SW and reinstate the tried and trusted AW. In 1958 the AW returned to the range and by 1960 the SW, like a bad dream, had all but vanished." This implies no AWs between 1955 and 1957 (inclusive).
All sounds good except that I have a bike with a 56 AW, and barnfind also has a 56 AW. So it does appear that while the marketing department wanted to see the SW replace the AW it appears that AWs continued to be available during the "blackout". My opinion is that as the poor reliability of the SW made itself known in 1955 and into 1956, manufacturers demanded supplies of more reliable hubs and the factory either used up spares or started up the AW manufacturing in 1956 while publicly pretending the SW was still going to make it. Its telling that it took until 1960 to stop making the SW even after the AW was reintroduced officially.
I got my quotes from Hadland's book "The Sturmey Archer Story".
All sounds good except that I have a bike with a 56 AW, and barnfind also has a 56 AW. So it does appear that while the marketing department wanted to see the SW replace the AW it appears that AWs continued to be available during the "blackout". My opinion is that as the poor reliability of the SW made itself known in 1955 and into 1956, manufacturers demanded supplies of more reliable hubs and the factory either used up spares or started up the AW manufacturing in 1956 while publicly pretending the SW was still going to make it. Its telling that it took until 1960 to stop making the SW even after the AW was reintroduced officially.
I got my quotes from Hadland's book "The Sturmey Archer Story".
I've also got a bike upstairs in storage that has a 59-4 40 spoke AW hub.
My guess is that the SW was only an option meant to maybe take over as the number one offering but it failed.
Over the years, I've only seen them on Raleigh and Hercules bikes. I've yet to find one on a Robin Hood, Dunelt, Philips, Royce Union, or other English bike.
The Hercules SW hub I've got was salvaged from a 24" ladies bike that came to me through a police auction many years ago. The bike had been hit by a car, the hub was one of the few things I salvaged from that bike. It was an odd bike, it had full skirt guards on both sides of the rear wheel, a painted to match rear rack, a painted front rack, matching two tone red/white seat, ribbed hand grips just like those on most Raleigh bikes but in white and about 3/4" shorter, alloy GB brakes and levers, level bend cruiser type bars with about a 4" rise, and chrome Raleigh style fenders partially painted in the frame color but with the middle and outer edges left chrome.
The rims were Raleigh Westrick pattern but in stainless steel in 32-40h (on a 24x1 3/8" rim). It had wide made in England white wall tires. I think the tires were also branded Hercules as well.
There are lots of running changes in the SW hub, they started out with a two piece shift indicator and ended up using the same one as an AW. I believe the early versions can be converted to use an AW indicator.
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01-26-21, 03:19 PM
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My first encounter of the SW hub was on a 1958 Phillips (so, last year before Raleigh took them over IIRC). I was servicing it out for a friend for use on the Lake Pepin 3-speed tour (coming up BTW 'come hell or high water') about 12 years ago. I simply had to replace it with an AW as the SW slipped quite readily. The bike really seemed like it had not been ridden much, and this is not surprising. My second encounter was on a 1957 BSA Golden DeLuxe rod brake machine, which was quite a charmer. This hub worked much better (only seemed to slip when it was cold) and was still on the bike when I sold it at the All British Cycle Event a few years ago.
01-26-21, 04:16 PM
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oldspokes I agree - I think the factory continued to churn out AWs in spite of the marketing department trying to convince the world the SW was the "one to have".
01-26-21, 04:29 PM
Junior Member
In digging around in my old hub pile, I pulled out a box of broken hubs I got from a shop that closed up over 30 years ago. The owner was tossing several buckets of old hubs so I grabbed them for parts.
I dug a bunch of them out to break them down for parts today and found this thing.
At first I just thought it was a later model AW, but its not marked AW on it anywhere. The axle is broken, its a low spoke count hub, and the driver and pawls are shattered in small pieces. It had a 16t sprocket.
The remains of the driver, a piece of the axle were broken off flush just inside the sprocket.
There are no right side pawls, only left side pawls, and both of those are broken. Only the pins remain. There are two pins in on the right side but the pins are pressed in place with no way to get hold of them for removal.. The ring gear section has an odd ratchet tooth design which I'm assuming must engage the driver, which is/was the pile of broken bits I dumped in to the trash before tearing this apart. The lower planet cage is the same as an AW hub. the sun gear however is different than an AW, the gear was riveted in place and the hole is in a different location than on an AW. The hub reads only Sturmey Archer Three Speed Hub Gear with a stamped 84 1 on one side and England on the other. The oil port is not threaded, it fits into a hex shaped hole like a grommet and it made of soft rubber. The shell itself will accept normal AW internals though. The right side bearing ring also takes a different wrench than an earlier AW hub. Its got crescent shaped notches.
Any idea what model this is? I take it the 84 1 is Jan. of 1984? Its likely been under my bench since the early 90's.
I'm not sure what happened to this hub but its got a lot of failures for a hub that was likely on a smaller bike.
The driver, right bearing ring, and ring gear are the big differences. The right side of this hub had a 12mm spacer, and the left side had a 10mm spacer. The axle was a lot longer than any I've seen before, likely over 7 1/4" long.
I dug a bunch of them out to break them down for parts today and found this thing.
At first I just thought it was a later model AW, but its not marked AW on it anywhere. The axle is broken, its a low spoke count hub, and the driver and pawls are shattered in small pieces. It had a 16t sprocket.
The remains of the driver, a piece of the axle were broken off flush just inside the sprocket.
There are no right side pawls, only left side pawls, and both of those are broken. Only the pins remain. There are two pins in on the right side but the pins are pressed in place with no way to get hold of them for removal.. The ring gear section has an odd ratchet tooth design which I'm assuming must engage the driver, which is/was the pile of broken bits I dumped in to the trash before tearing this apart. The lower planet cage is the same as an AW hub. the sun gear however is different than an AW, the gear was riveted in place and the hole is in a different location than on an AW. The hub reads only Sturmey Archer Three Speed Hub Gear with a stamped 84 1 on one side and England on the other. The oil port is not threaded, it fits into a hex shaped hole like a grommet and it made of soft rubber. The shell itself will accept normal AW internals though. The right side bearing ring also takes a different wrench than an earlier AW hub. Its got crescent shaped notches.
Any idea what model this is? I take it the 84 1 is Jan. of 1984? Its likely been under my bench since the early 90's.
I'm not sure what happened to this hub but its got a lot of failures for a hub that was likely on a smaller bike.
The driver, right bearing ring, and ring gear are the big differences. The right side of this hub had a 12mm spacer, and the left side had a 10mm spacer. The axle was a lot longer than any I've seen before, likely over 7 1/4" long.
01-26-21, 04:52 PM
Junior Member
oldspokes I agree - I think the factory continued to churn out AWs in spite of the marketing department trying to convince the world the SW was the "one to have".
I also don't recall ever seeing an SW hub on a Schwinn or any other American bike.
When I was about 10 I got hold of an old Rollfast that someone had dumped in the river. We were fishing off a dock when we spotted something shiny in the water. We went and got a rope and we fished out a Rollfast that said 'Made in England on it, and a Western Flyer middleweight.
My buddy kept the Western Flyer, I kept the Rollfast. It hadn't been in the water all that long, it wasn't rusty or silt covered yet, but the bearings obviously needed to be repacked. I remember flushing out the hub with kerosene about a dozen times, and finally with alcohol to remove the water. That hub was a Sturmey Archer AW dated 58-3. I had that bike till about ten years ago. I sold it a woman who had been bugging me about it for years. It was too small for me even back then. It was a lugged frame, it looked about like a dark red Hercules but with Rollfast logos. It had the common Made in England script found on so many English bikes back then.
01-27-21, 08:21 AM
Junior Member
In digging around in my old hub pile, I pulled out a box of broken hubs I got from a shop that closed up over 30 years ago. The owner was tossing several buckets of old hubs so I grabbed them for parts.
I dug a bunch of them out to break them down for parts today and found this thing.
At first I just thought it was a later model AW, but its not marked AW on it anywhere. The axle is broken, its a low spoke count hub, and the driver and pawls are shattered in small pieces. It had a 16t sprocket.
The remains of the driver, a piece of the axle were broken off flush just inside the sprocket.
There are no right side pawls, only left side pawls, and both of those are broken. Only the pins remain. There are two pins in on the right side but the pins are pressed in place with no way to get hold of them for removal.. The ring gear section has an odd ratchet tooth design which I'm assuming must engage the driver, which is/was the pile of broken bits I dumped in to the trash before tearing this apart. The lower planet cage is the same as an AW hub. the sun gear however is different than an AW, the gear was riveted in place and the hole is in a different location than on an AW. The hub reads only Sturmey Archer Three Speed Hub Gear with a stamped 84 1 on one side and England on the other. The oil port is not threaded, it fits into a hex shaped hole like a grommet and it made of soft rubber. The shell itself will accept normal AW internals though. The right side bearing ring also takes a different wrench than an earlier AW hub. Its got crescent shaped notches.
Any idea what model this is? I take it the 84 1 is Jan. of 1984? Its likely been under my bench since the early 90's.
I'm not sure what happened to this hub but its got a lot of failures for a hub that was likely on a smaller bike.
The driver, right bearing ring, and ring gear are the big differences. The right side of this hub had a 12mm spacer, and the left side had a 10mm spacer. The axle was a lot longer than any I've seen before, likely over 7 1/4" long.
I dug a bunch of them out to break them down for parts today and found this thing.
At first I just thought it was a later model AW, but its not marked AW on it anywhere. The axle is broken, its a low spoke count hub, and the driver and pawls are shattered in small pieces. It had a 16t sprocket.
The remains of the driver, a piece of the axle were broken off flush just inside the sprocket.
There are no right side pawls, only left side pawls, and both of those are broken. Only the pins remain. There are two pins in on the right side but the pins are pressed in place with no way to get hold of them for removal.. The ring gear section has an odd ratchet tooth design which I'm assuming must engage the driver, which is/was the pile of broken bits I dumped in to the trash before tearing this apart. The lower planet cage is the same as an AW hub. the sun gear however is different than an AW, the gear was riveted in place and the hole is in a different location than on an AW. The hub reads only Sturmey Archer Three Speed Hub Gear with a stamped 84 1 on one side and England on the other. The oil port is not threaded, it fits into a hex shaped hole like a grommet and it made of soft rubber. The shell itself will accept normal AW internals though. The right side bearing ring also takes a different wrench than an earlier AW hub. Its got crescent shaped notches.
Any idea what model this is? I take it the 84 1 is Jan. of 1984? Its likely been under my bench since the early 90's.
I'm not sure what happened to this hub but its got a lot of failures for a hub that was likely on a smaller bike.
The driver, right bearing ring, and ring gear are the big differences. The right side of this hub had a 12mm spacer, and the left side had a 10mm spacer. The axle was a lot longer than any I've seen before, likely over 7 1/4" long.
Sturmey Archer built those soley for Columbia to eliminate the possible neutral between 2nd and 3rd gear.
To my knowledge, only Columbia got those back then. They use a different driver and ring gear, as well as the deeper bearing cup on the right side.
I've seen a few built with standard AW internals and a few built as No Int. Gear hubs. Most were on smaller bikes, so possibly the NIG option was being sold then as a child safety feature for newer riders, but that's just a guess.
I just rob those for the parts that do fit an older AW and toss the rest in the parts hub pile.
The planet gears, planet housing, planet pawls should all be the same as an AW.
I've seen quite a few of those with broken axles as well, not sure if it was a design issue or abusive riding or neglect.
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01-27-21, 08:54 PM
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