Go Back  Bike Forums > Bike Forums > Classic & Vintage
Reload this Page >

For the love of English 3 speeds...

Notices
Classic & Vintage This forum is to discuss the many aspects of classic and vintage bicycles, including musclebikes, lightweights, middleweights, hi-wheelers, bone-shakers, safety bikes and much more.

For the love of English 3 speeds...

Old 03-28-21, 05:24 PM
  #24151  
gster
Senior Member
 
gster's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Toronto
Posts: 2,555

Bikes: 1971 Hercules, 1978 Raleigh Superbe, 1978 Raleigh Tourist, 1964 Glider 3 Speed, 1967 Raleigh Sprite 5 Speed, 1968 Hercules AMF 3 Speed, 1972 Raleigh Superbe, 1976 Raleigh Superbe, 1957 Flying Pigeon, 1967 Dunelt 3 Speed

Mentioned: 57 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1024 Post(s)
Liked 398 Times in 276 Posts
Originally Posted by paulb_in_bkln View Post
Maybe using two sprockets in the back on the existing AW along with a derailer is easier than I think it is.
It can be done as well as a rear derailleur as the other option. They were a popular option in the late 50's/early 60's.
There's a guy on this forum from Bellville (I think) who built a nice one last year and posted pictures/progress etc.
There's math involved as well with sprocket teeth etc.
I tried to do one last year and messed up and broke
some spokes in the back wheel when the derailleur travelled to far.
I gave up but would like to try again.
I did buy a Cyclo derailleur recently and would
like to install.
Looks similar to this one
gster is offline  
Old 03-28-21, 06:01 PM
  #24152  
thumpism
Senior Member
 
thumpism's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2015
Location: Richmond, Virginia
Posts: 8,781

Bikes: Waterford Paramount Touring, Giant CFM-2, Raleigh Sports 3-speeds in M23 & L23, Schwinn Cimarron oddball build, Marin Palisades Trail dropbar conversion, Nishiki Cresta GT

Mentioned: 65 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2556 Post(s)
Liked 2,082 Times in 1,354 Posts
Not mine. Very reasonable price.

https://www.facebook.com/marketplace...70829760232866

thumpism is offline  
Old 03-28-21, 07:05 PM
  #24153  
rhenning
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 3,653
Mentioned: 13 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 380 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 103 Times in 77 Posts
There were some questions. When I did mine I got the shifters and derailleurs from an early 10 speed that an older kid broke the frame on. They were French manufactured with the rear being a Huret Allvet and the front ???? I know that is spelled wrong but I was 14 and am now 72. Surprisingly it actually shifted the wider 3 speed chain. At that age I didn't know there were different chains. Again from memory the rear sprockets were a 19 and 16. 2 SA sprockets fit on the hub if you left the spacers (washers) out and put the offsets on the sprockets so the big one faced to the center and the small one faced out. Roger

Last edited by rhenning; 03-28-21 at 07:10 PM.
rhenning is offline  
Old 03-28-21, 07:32 PM
  #24154  
clubman 
Phyllo-buster
 
clubman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Nova Scotia
Posts: 8,632

Bikes: roadsters, club bikes, fixed and classic

Mentioned: 130 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2229 Post(s)
Liked 1,849 Times in 1,139 Posts
Originally Posted by paulb_in_bkln View Post
Maybe using two sprockets in the back on the existing AW along with a derailer is easier than I think it is.
Hybrid IGH-derailleur conversions never really caught on for any period in time. They were often fussy and heavy. I'd try to persuade Max that an FW with a large cog is the best way to meet his needs and keeps the bikes character. He doesn't want to muck about with the hybrid, seeing as he doesn't pay attention to the rear spread on his bikes. You'd want to be hands-on. Or have his good friend Paul service it for him.
clubman is offline  
Old 03-28-21, 07:53 PM
  #24155  
paulb_in_bkln
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2018
Location: Brooklyn, NY
Posts: 660

Bikes: 1983 Trek 600, 1972 Raleigh Sports Step Thru, 1963 Rudge Sports, 2007 Dahon MuP8, Dahon Speed, Public Mixte 8-speed IGH, mid-70s Peugeot Mixte AW conversion, Riv Platypus

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 350 Post(s)
Liked 23 Times in 17 Posts
Originally Posted by clubman View Post
Or have his good friend Paul service it for him.
Oh god. No good deed goes unpunished, does it?
PS Brompton seem to have made good use of the compound drive train trick.Few others, though.
paulb_in_bkln is offline  
Old 03-28-21, 08:08 PM
  #24156  
clubman 
Phyllo-buster
 
clubman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Nova Scotia
Posts: 8,632

Bikes: roadsters, club bikes, fixed and classic

Mentioned: 130 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2229 Post(s)
Liked 1,849 Times in 1,139 Posts
Originally Posted by paulb_in_bkln View Post
Oh god. No good deed goes unpunished, does it?
PS Brompton seem to have made good use of the compound drive train trick.Few others, though.
I'd like to try an updated drivetrain. I really didn't like the only SA conversion I encountered.
clubman is offline  
Old 03-28-21, 09:43 PM
  #24157  
browngw 
Senior Member
 
browngw's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Port Dover Ontario Canada
Posts: 1,509

Bikes: 1965 Dilecta Le Blanc, 1956 Royal Nord, 1972 Raleigh Sports, 1972 CCM Turismo,1976 SuperCycle Excalibur, 2014 Salsa Vaya, 2017 Felt DD70, 2019 Giant Lafree and others

Mentioned: 39 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 336 Post(s)
Liked 434 Times in 192 Posts
This past December I was gifted a made in Italy Milano step through. It was pointed out to me that it used the wider chain like our three speeds. The first I had seen. Its a weird but somewhat fetching bike that could be restored or repurposed. Perhaps next winter.



__________________
We are what we reflect. We are the changes that we bring to this world. Ride often. -Geo.-
browngw is offline  
Old 03-29-21, 06:15 AM
  #24158  
paulb_in_bkln
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2018
Location: Brooklyn, NY
Posts: 660

Bikes: 1983 Trek 600, 1972 Raleigh Sports Step Thru, 1963 Rudge Sports, 2007 Dahon MuP8, Dahon Speed, Public Mixte 8-speed IGH, mid-70s Peugeot Mixte AW conversion, Riv Platypus

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 350 Post(s)
Liked 23 Times in 17 Posts
Originally Posted by browngw View Post
This past December I was gifted a made in Italy Milano step through. It was pointed out to me that it used the wider chain like our three speeds. The first I had seen. Its a weird but somewhat fetching bike that could be restored or repurposed. Perhaps next winter.
The black Simplex derailer gives a pretty good idea when it was made. I dunno. Asia has so completely taken over the production of bike frames that I think almost anything made somewhere else is worth preserving, and this one has some nice chrome and that low mixte configuration is something you don't see every day.
paulb_in_bkln is offline  
Old 03-29-21, 07:43 AM
  #24159  
paulb_in_bkln
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2018
Location: Brooklyn, NY
Posts: 660

Bikes: 1983 Trek 600, 1972 Raleigh Sports Step Thru, 1963 Rudge Sports, 2007 Dahon MuP8, Dahon Speed, Public Mixte 8-speed IGH, mid-70s Peugeot Mixte AW conversion, Riv Platypus

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 350 Post(s)
Liked 23 Times in 17 Posts
Originally Posted by browngw View Post
This past December I was gifted a made in Italy Milano step through. It was pointed out to me that it used the wider chain like our three speeds. The first I had seen. Its a weird but somewhat fetching bike that could be restored or repurposed. Perhaps next winter.
Those plastic grips are so ubiquitous. My ladies' Sports arrived with them and I've never thought to replace them. The Rivendell folks seem to love them, although they cover them with padding and weird stuff.
paulb_in_bkln is offline  
Old 03-29-21, 07:45 AM
  #24160  
paulb_in_bkln
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2018
Location: Brooklyn, NY
Posts: 660

Bikes: 1983 Trek 600, 1972 Raleigh Sports Step Thru, 1963 Rudge Sports, 2007 Dahon MuP8, Dahon Speed, Public Mixte 8-speed IGH, mid-70s Peugeot Mixte AW conversion, Riv Platypus

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 350 Post(s)
Liked 23 Times in 17 Posts
Can an FW hub be used without the correct SA four speed shifter? I ask only because it almost seems easier to find the hub at a reasonable price than a working SA trigger shifter.
paulb_in_bkln is offline  
Old 03-29-21, 07:59 AM
  #24161  
clubman 
Phyllo-buster
 
clubman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Nova Scotia
Posts: 8,632

Bikes: roadsters, club bikes, fixed and classic

Mentioned: 130 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2229 Post(s)
Liked 1,849 Times in 1,139 Posts
No but there's more of them out there than you think. Many older triggers were designed for 3 or 4 speeds.
clubman is offline  
Old 03-29-21, 08:10 AM
  #24162  
paulb_in_bkln
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2018
Location: Brooklyn, NY
Posts: 660

Bikes: 1983 Trek 600, 1972 Raleigh Sports Step Thru, 1963 Rudge Sports, 2007 Dahon MuP8, Dahon Speed, Public Mixte 8-speed IGH, mid-70s Peugeot Mixte AW conversion, Riv Platypus

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 350 Post(s)
Liked 23 Times in 17 Posts
Originally Posted by clubman View Post
No but there's more of them out there than you think. Many older triggers were designed for 3 or 4 speeds.
So SA's shifters for their current 4 speeds don't pull the right length of cable for the old models. Shucks.
paulb_in_bkln is offline  
Old 03-29-21, 08:27 AM
  #24163  
clubman 
Phyllo-buster
 
clubman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Nova Scotia
Posts: 8,632

Bikes: roadsters, club bikes, fixed and classic

Mentioned: 130 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2229 Post(s)
Liked 1,849 Times in 1,139 Posts
Sorry, no I wasn't saying that. I'm so stuck in the past, I didn't even know there were new 4 speed hubs and shifters available. Someone else know the answer?
clubman is offline  
Old 03-29-21, 08:44 AM
  #24164  
paulb_in_bkln
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2018
Location: Brooklyn, NY
Posts: 660

Bikes: 1983 Trek 600, 1972 Raleigh Sports Step Thru, 1963 Rudge Sports, 2007 Dahon MuP8, Dahon Speed, Public Mixte 8-speed IGH, mid-70s Peugeot Mixte AW conversion, Riv Platypus

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 350 Post(s)
Liked 23 Times in 17 Posts
Originally Posted by clubman View Post
Sorry, no I wasn't saying that. I'm so stuck in the past, I didn't even know there were new 4 speed hubs and shifters available. Someone else know the answer?
The new hubs use a rotary shifter on the hub, not the pull chain, so it's probably too much to ask for. Maybe I'll drop them a line and ask.
paulb_in_bkln is offline  
Old 03-29-21, 08:52 AM
  #24165  
cszipper
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2018
Location: Morris Cty, NJ
Posts: 20
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 12 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 2 Times in 2 Posts
Originally Posted by paulb_in_bkln View Post
Is there a reasonably simple way to do this? I canít think of it. We might be able to find an old FW or S5 hub and shifter and have a new wheel built or swap the internals into the existing hub shell. But here in the USA, those hubs and 4 speed shifters are hard to come by. Max might also be dubious about spending on such old parts. I'd have to find out. ... Or add an extra sprocket and derailer to the existing AW hub. But thatís hardware from the old days. Again, very hard to find all that in the USA.
This one has me scratching my head.
At various times, I've swapped S5 hub guts and used the 3 cog Cyclo cluster and Benelux derailer to add gear range to my bikes. As you say, the toughest part of the job is finding the old parts. With parts in hand, both are easy to set up, and, I suspect, would be cheaper than having a whole new wheel built. I prefer the S5 conversion, and that is what I still have, but had no problems with the derailer either.

For the S5 conversion all you need to convert (aside from the hub) is a shifter for the left side of the hub, cable, and assorted cable stops/pulleys. You can swap the guts of the hub into your existing wheel as a unit. If the left side bellcrank is missing you can save some money by adapting the bellcrank from a Shimano 333 hub to fit instead of buying the pricey SA part. A nice feature of the S5 hub is that all of the common wear parts (bearing surfaces, clutch, pawls, etc...) interchange with the AW. This was fortunate for me, since both of my S5s came from junkyard bikes and had suffered badly from water intrusion.

The only tricky part of the derailer conversion was adjusting the chain guard so that it didn't rub when I was on the outer cogs in the cluster. I think I had to bend it a bit, but didn't have to cut anything. On a newer frame with the brazed on chainguard mounts this might be tougher to set up. I used the Cyclo 3 cog cluster and Benelux pull-chain derailer and they mounted up and worked fine. My Cyclo cluster was slightly wider than the hub driver, so I had to add a small spacer spacer to each side of the hub axle in order to make enough room on the drive side and keep the wheel centered. I don't think you'd have to do this if you used the 2 back-to-back SA cogs mentioned above by another poster.

-Carl
cszipper is offline  
Old 03-29-21, 09:13 AM
  #24166  
paulb_in_bkln
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2018
Location: Brooklyn, NY
Posts: 660

Bikes: 1983 Trek 600, 1972 Raleigh Sports Step Thru, 1963 Rudge Sports, 2007 Dahon MuP8, Dahon Speed, Public Mixte 8-speed IGH, mid-70s Peugeot Mixte AW conversion, Riv Platypus

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 350 Post(s)
Liked 23 Times in 17 Posts
Originally Posted by cszipper View Post
At various times, I've swapped S5 hub guts and used the 3 cog Cyclo cluster and Benelux derailer to add gear range to my bikes. As you say, the toughest part of the job is finding the old parts. With parts in hand, both are easy to set up, and, I suspect, would be cheaper than having a whole new wheel built. I prefer the S5 conversion, and that is what I still have, but had no problems with the derailer either...
-Carl
All great information. I have so many AWs that I have lifted off derelict street bikes, but despite keeping my eye peeled, I have never come across a four or five speed.
paulb_in_bkln is offline  
Old 03-29-21, 09:47 AM
  #24167  
gster
Senior Member
 
gster's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Toronto
Posts: 2,555

Bikes: 1971 Hercules, 1978 Raleigh Superbe, 1978 Raleigh Tourist, 1964 Glider 3 Speed, 1967 Raleigh Sprite 5 Speed, 1968 Hercules AMF 3 Speed, 1972 Raleigh Superbe, 1976 Raleigh Superbe, 1957 Flying Pigeon, 1967 Dunelt 3 Speed

Mentioned: 57 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1024 Post(s)
Liked 398 Times in 276 Posts
Originally Posted by thumpism View Post
That is a good deal.
And a Rudge!
gster is offline  
Old 03-29-21, 10:14 AM
  #24168  
thumpism
Senior Member
 
thumpism's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2015
Location: Richmond, Virginia
Posts: 8,781

Bikes: Waterford Paramount Touring, Giant CFM-2, Raleigh Sports 3-speeds in M23 & L23, Schwinn Cimarron oddball build, Marin Palisades Trail dropbar conversion, Nishiki Cresta GT

Mentioned: 65 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2556 Post(s)
Liked 2,082 Times in 1,354 Posts
Originally Posted by browngw View Post
This past December I was gifted a made in Italy Milano step through. It was pointed out to me that it used the wider chain like our three speeds. The first I had seen. Its a weird but somewhat fetching bike that could be restored or repurposed. Perhaps next winter.



Neat, a Berceau ("cradle") frame. I got a similar Chiorda in '83 that I built up into an MTB for my then-girlfriend, now wife. We sold it twice; once to a friend for his daughter and he gave it back when she grew out of it, and again to a guy who wanted the drum-brake wheels for a project. I also gave him the original fork so he could return it to roadbikehood. That Thun bottom bracket likely has originally-painted-and-never-used Italian threading behind those press-in cups.


I have seen 1/2" x 1/8" chain on a derailleur bike but only on a three- or four-speed cluster. My little 500A Flandria had that.

Last edited by thumpism; 03-29-21 at 10:21 AM.
thumpism is offline  
Old 03-29-21, 03:49 PM
  #24169  
paulb_in_bkln
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2018
Location: Brooklyn, NY
Posts: 660

Bikes: 1983 Trek 600, 1972 Raleigh Sports Step Thru, 1963 Rudge Sports, 2007 Dahon MuP8, Dahon Speed, Public Mixte 8-speed IGH, mid-70s Peugeot Mixte AW conversion, Riv Platypus

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 350 Post(s)
Liked 23 Times in 17 Posts
Two word answer from Sun Race USA whether one of the current four-speed shifters will work with a vintage hub like the FW. "Sorry, no."
paulb_in_bkln is offline  
Old 03-29-21, 05:03 PM
  #24170  
cudak888 
www.theheadbadge.com
 
cudak888's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Southern Florida
Posts: 28,191

Bikes: https://www.theheadbadge.com

Mentioned: 112 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2260 Post(s)
Liked 3,774 Times in 1,890 Posts
Originally Posted by paulb_in_bkln View Post
Two word answer from Sun Race USA whether one of the current four-speed shifters will work with a vintage hub like the FW. "Sorry, no."
Some more words about that: Find out how much cable pull is required, and then laser-cut a replacement notch assembly for a SRAM rebuildable trigger shifter to pull and latch the correct spacing.

-Kurt
__________________







cudak888 is offline  
Old 03-29-21, 05:12 PM
  #24171  
gster
Senior Member
 
gster's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Toronto
Posts: 2,555

Bikes: 1971 Hercules, 1978 Raleigh Superbe, 1978 Raleigh Tourist, 1964 Glider 3 Speed, 1967 Raleigh Sprite 5 Speed, 1968 Hercules AMF 3 Speed, 1972 Raleigh Superbe, 1976 Raleigh Superbe, 1957 Flying Pigeon, 1967 Dunelt 3 Speed

Mentioned: 57 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1024 Post(s)
Liked 398 Times in 276 Posts
Originally Posted by paulb_in_bkln View Post
Two word answer from Sun Race USA whether one of the current four-speed shifters will work with a vintage hub like the FW. "Sorry, no."
The 3/4 speed triggers were produced in the thousands.
They're out there and quite nicely designed.
Ask around, LBS, Community bike shops etc.
Stay away from ebay/crazy prices.
gster is offline  
Old 03-29-21, 05:19 PM
  #24172  
Ghostknife
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: St Clair MI
Posts: 87

Bikes: 14 DiamondBack Interval Carbon, 14 Specialized Fatboy Expert, 08 Specialized Langster London, '78 Raleigh Sports

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 36 Post(s)
Liked 33 Times in 18 Posts
So, Iím at a loss, where the heck does this thing go? Lol, Iíve looked at a bunch of diagrams and videos and canít find one that has this spacer. Iím thinking someone had this hub apart since some things werenít in correctly based off of what Iíve seen. I also am missing the smaller washers, #4 in the diagram.




Ghostknife is offline  
Old 03-29-21, 05:39 PM
  #24173  
gster
Senior Member
 
gster's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Toronto
Posts: 2,555

Bikes: 1971 Hercules, 1978 Raleigh Superbe, 1978 Raleigh Tourist, 1964 Glider 3 Speed, 1967 Raleigh Sprite 5 Speed, 1968 Hercules AMF 3 Speed, 1972 Raleigh Superbe, 1976 Raleigh Superbe, 1957 Flying Pigeon, 1967 Dunelt 3 Speed

Mentioned: 57 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1024 Post(s)
Liked 398 Times in 276 Posts
Looks like a #4 from the diagram but from a Dynohub.....
Should still work.
gster is offline  
Old 03-29-21, 09:21 PM
  #24174  
cudak888 
www.theheadbadge.com
 
cudak888's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Southern Florida
Posts: 28,191

Bikes: https://www.theheadbadge.com

Mentioned: 112 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2260 Post(s)
Liked 3,774 Times in 1,890 Posts
Newish SA left-hand axle spacer, before they changed to thick left-hand nuts.

-Kurt
__________________







cudak888 is offline  
Old 03-30-21, 04:50 AM
  #24175  
Ghostknife
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: St Clair MI
Posts: 87

Bikes: 14 DiamondBack Interval Carbon, 14 Specialized Fatboy Expert, 08 Specialized Langster London, '78 Raleigh Sports

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 36 Post(s)
Liked 33 Times in 18 Posts
Originally Posted by gster View Post
Looks like a #4 from the diagram but from a Dynohub.....
Should still work.
Thatís weird! Wonder why itís on here lol

Originally Posted by cudak888 View Post
Newish SA left-hand axle spacer, before they changed to thick left-hand nuts.

-Kurt
ok thanks, what numbers would this piece fall between? Iím going to go to the local store and get some washers to replace #4 I think today, I couldnít get the wheel in with the thick space in the mix.


EDIT: Iím a dummy, got it figured out! Thanks

Last edited by Ghostknife; 03-30-21 at 05:52 AM.
Ghostknife is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service - Do Not Sell or Share My Personal Information -

Copyright © 2023 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.