Bottom bracket and old crank compatibility
 

Sorry for the multitude of questions - I have been away from C&V for over 20 years (last time I was in a bike store buying older parts, they were selling NOS Super Record headsets for $40).

To avoid an old style open BB, can I buy a newer Campy sealed BB (square taper) and put old Super Record cranks on it?

No, it won't work. Modern sealed Campy bottom bracket spindles are shorter, designed to fit modern "low-profile" cranks. A Nuovo/Super Record crank mounted on a modern spindle will ride too far inboard and will hit the chainstay.

Unlike the newer cranksets that use symmetrical spindles, Nuovo/Super Record cranks used asymmetrical spindles in which the drive side tapers were further outboard.

to add to the above Super Record cranks had a different spindle taper than what Campi uses today. however I am sure there is a cartridge style BB that will fit your needs. check Velo Orange, Phil Wood. they might be pricey but then again a a Campi BB is pricy itself.

Or, I guess I can buy a Nuovo or Super Record BB and deal with the loose bearings and old style non-sealed innards? At least it would be correct fit-wise.

I think the inexpensive Miche Primato might do the job, it has an ISO taper and the chainling is slightly adjustable like the Phil is. Downside is that the cartridge bearings are not the world's finest (but easily replaced) and the cups are prone to loosening according to some...Blue Loctite is the answer there (same answer that Phil uses to lock their mounting rings, too). If you can find the right spindle length (supposed to come in 107/110/115, but hard to find the 2 longer lengths, and supposed to have all 3 cup threadings: BSC ITA, FR), the price is usually under $30.

you certainly can. after all we had those style BBs for decades before cartridges became the norm.

also I made a slight error, VO does not seem to have the correct taper you need.

BTW what is wrong witht he BB you have now?

cups and cones roll smoother. and for the haute route, you can get ceramic loose balls...

I have a couple of the Miche Primatos. They have never loosened, but I tightened them as much as a dared with an aluminum part. I didn't use Loctite, I used anti- seize.

I didn't have any trouble finding the longer ones. Universal Cycles has always had them, as far as I know. The price is good, too.

Nothing is wrong with the BB I have now - except that it is exclusive to the C-Record cranks. It wont work with Super Record.

I'd just get the correct BB off Ebay and be done with it - exactly what I did last year for a Record Strada crankset that I bought. I paid about $50 with shipping for a nice used one and ride it all the time without problems.

Yeah, that's what I'll do, when I find a crank set to buy. What is this "Strada" on Campy Super Record cranks?

"Strada" means "road" as distinct from "pista" which means "track."

FYI, as far as the BB goes, you can use an inexpensive cartridge BB as long as it has the requisite JIS taper and you select the correct spindle length. They are available. Accounting for the 3mm offset the Campagnolo cranks have requires the use of a spacer on the fixed side (as per Miami Jim) or selecting a spindle length that takes the offset into account.

Edit: You probably know this, but a Nuovo Record bottom bracket is the way to go if you go vintage - that's what the vast majority of Super Record bikes were equipped with back in the day. The Super Record BB's with the Ti spindles are pricey.

I'd rather use a once top of the line Campy BB than a modern low-end cartridge BB. And good advice, I wouldn't pay up for a titanium axel, and don't have a problem using a Nuovo Record. I just have to find 172.5 Super Record cranks!

Use a modern cartidge BB and be done with it. No loosening, no adjusting. Plug-n-play.

VO Bbsets are JIS taper. Your crank has an ISO taper.

You mean my current C-Record crank is ISO? Or the Super Record vintage crank I want to get? I'm confused!

I was too quick to recommend JIS in my post - my apologies, since it's your money. My understanding, having spent way too much time researching this, is that Campagnolo taper did change slightly at some point (circa early 90's). Whether or not the Campagnolo taper has always been referred to as "ISO" I'm not sure. The earlier Campagnolo taper cranks often work with newer JIS bottom brackets if the cranks have been mounted and used before, which allows them to go further onto the spindle. The Phil Wood BB's for Campagnolo cranks are described as "JIS," but actually are apparently somewhere between JIS and ISO. What this means is that you could face a situation where an older Campagnolo crank may not go far enough onto a JIS taper spindle to properly seat; or it could go too far onto a newer ISO spindle. There are folks who will tell you the taper compatibility issue is overblown, but just as many folks who will tell you it can cause real problems. In any case, this is one of those case-by-case gray areas where some experimentation is the only real answer. So if you're not in an experimental frame of mind, you can either go with an older BB, or wait for a slam-dunk, definitely-gonna-work recommendation for a modern, cheap cartridge BB, either JIS or ISO. Maybe miamijim has one.

Older BB it will be!!

piccio- I think you have pretty much muddied the waters re spindle tapers.

Count on Campy tapers to be ISO. Especially 70's era Super Record and 80's era C Record.

here's a primer on BB's:
http://info.velo-orange.com/BBBasics.html
and Sheldon Brown has a lengthy article on this as well.

A campy crank will fit on the fatter ISO spindle but it will stick out around 4.5mm further than optimal, which affects the chainline some.

Phil Wood makes 1 ISO and 2 different JIS spindles in a bunch of lengths. They do not have an 'in between' taper: http://sheldonbrown.com/harris/botto...ets.html#sizes

Ok, since I'm bored to death on this Sunday I'll play around with my stash of parts and come up dimensions etc.....

With all due respect, from what I've read (in more than one place), the taper that Phil Wood advertises as JIS in fact measures "in between" JIS and ISO, despite what they choose to call it. Furthermore, if you look at the Phil Woods site, they indicate that JIS taper is what works for pre-1994 Campagnolo cranks: http://www.philwood.com/products/bottom-brackets/. (Which is not saying that Campagnolo was using JIS as its standard.)
There is also the implication that if earlier Campy cranks were ISO, this was at least a slightly different "ISO" from the contemporary version. Therefore, I wouldn't automatically assume that a modern ISO taper bottom bracket will work with an earlier Record crank without going too far onto the spindle, especially if the crank is a used one. Not saying it won't either. But the waters were muddied long before I jumped in.

If you're not intending to do a fully faithful restoration or if your bike is from the years when C-record and Super Record overlapped in the Campy catalogs, you can get a set of C-record crank arms probably a lot cheaper than a good Nuovo Record or Super Record BB. Conversely, that C-record BB you have is rare, and should fetch a good price on Ebay. You might even be able to get a good trade for a NR or SR BB.

"strada" just means "road." "Pista" means "track". Strada cranks have two chainrings (three is unusual but they exist). The BBs are different. The bicycleclassics.com site, which sells NOS Campy, has a table explaining all the spindle/cupset/crankset/frame dimension compatibility issues in Campy cup and cone BBs.

Good luck, Jim! I'm not a machinist, but I do know how to use a mike and a caliper. I went off after one of these debates and tried to isolate the key differences between JIS, ISO, and vintage Campy, and I found it real hard to get numbers that showed anything that seemed concrete.

So am I. Do you have a C-record crank and a C-record BB that is correct for your frame? If so, they should be a good match. Why do you have a problem in the first place?

BTW, I have used my C-record crank with a Campy sealed ACH-111 mm bottom bracket, with very good results. Those are still around from time, and should be pretty cheap. Lickton should be able to tell you more about what modern BB should be a decent replacement for the ACH-111 mm.