Dawes-man

How about this? And to others, did the previous pics show up as an X for you too?





I'm impressed that you made that yourself! Very cool!

Dawes-man

I don't know but I will try to find out in the next few days. My LBS had a gauge when Mr Sugiyama was running it but it might have been his personal tool. How would I measure them otherwise?

Stop press - I've realised that all I need is one of those plastic semicircular plastic things used for geometry. I have one somewhere... I'll be back.

clubman 

In addition to black and white...

These show up on ebay once in awhile. Hilary Stone used to post them for auction but he appears to have stopped selling.

They only look good on frames with the right angles...too rigid to bend and give. But purty...

Six jours

That worked. Very nice. Glad I'm not the only one with an interest in the old Brits.

Six jours

I'd initially planned on using aluminum (aluminium?) fenders, as I am very comfortable with them on the French style bikes I am used to. But all the talk of "celluloid" made me really want to give them a try.

So I've ordered the Bluemels ones from the Ebay fellow. I am going to add some brazed-on loops at the stays and behind the fork blades, similar to the Raleigh Clubman setup. Does anyone have any close-up pics of the stay attachments at the frame?

southpawboston

my CADD software is telling me about 76 ST, 76 HT, although because of the camera angle and lens distortion, those can be off by a degree, the HT probably more so.

cudak888 

76/76?

Crap, that's steep. I'd like to know what Peugeot's idea was with that geometry.

-Kurt

Dawes-man

I'm impressed! Firstly at Kurt's eye and then southpawbostons's use of CAD - I'm a complete novice.

I've measured the angles as best I could (by holding a clipboard and paper against the frame and tracing the tube lines, then measuring the angles) and find the HT to be 75 and the ST to be 78.

Kurt, what does this mean?

brianinc-ville

Just to be clear: the plastic Bluemels fenders everyone's talking about here are not made of celluloid. Those early celluloid fenders (the ones on my Raleigh Clubman were made by Britannia, but Bluemels made some too, up to the mid-'50s, I think) were really brittle and hardly any of them exist anymore. Every once in a while you might see some on eBay (esp. eBay UK), but they'll probably be in sad shape and really expensive.

As for the more modern (i.e. '60s-'80s) plastic Bluemels: I might (might! not definitely!) have a lead on a pair of white ones. PM me if you're interested.

Six jours

Well, that's kind of what I figured. Oh well. Guess the Bluemels I ordered are going to have to be "close enough". At least they announce to the world that they are made in England!

BTW, do you have pics of your Clubman?

brianinc-ville

Six jours: here's my Clubman, as it was when I got it; notice the celluloid mudguards, broken and missing several pieces. The "spearpoint" shape of the front mudguard is distinctive; I think somewhere out there on the innerwebs you'll find instructions for cutting Bluemels fenders to imitate it.

Sadly, I haven't had time to finish the Clubman yet (my other bikes keep demanding attention from me), but I got some NOS white Bluemels Club Specials for it. Back in November, when I bought them, the guy had one more pair left.

Grand Bois

It's a PX60. I think the frame geometry is identical to the PX10. They just added a generator tab and Bluemels fenders.

OLDYELLR

How old was that film? "Safety film" was phased in in the 1950s. I remember as a kid that by then it was real hard to find the "good stuff" that burned.

Six jours

Thanks, Brian. That will be a very nice bike. I am considering buying a S-A Dynohub, but am kind of spoiled by the Schmidt. How does the quality of the S-A strike you? Is there much resistance?

FrancoSuisse

Hi, new to the forum, but a long time reader. I owned both a new Raleigh Grand Prix and a Raleigh Gran Sport prior to 1962. Both came with celluloid mudguards. They both had Britannia "Sprint Veloce" mudguards with the raised center ridge. I am not a mudguard historian, but I never saw any Raleighs with Bluemels, I worked in a Raleigh shop until about 65.

When I cleaned up my current Gran Sport I decided to go with the cream SKS mudguards, because they had pretty much the same color as old Sprint Veloces, and they had a black mudguard, not white. And I bought mine on sale for $25 from Universal Cycles.

I modified them, by first cutting them to match the length of the originals and to remove the black soft protectors from the front and the mudflap from the rear. I also shortened the front, raising the mudflap considerably. I installed a round reflector on the rear, and did not install the black tips on the stays (which were not on the originals). I have seen one set of Bluemels which are very close match the Britannias, the Bluemels "Lightweight."

The SKS mudguards are really much more sturdy than the delicate originals, and match more closely than the more common Bluemels "Popular." See what you all think...


By the way, I treated myself to a Britannia "Sprint Veloce" white pump!

OLDYELLR

I'm sure Raleighs came with Bluemels mudguards. That was the most popular brand (pun not intended). Here is a good example:

Raleigh Record Ace 1948

It's possible that later on they were branded "Raleigh" since it was such a large manufacturer, same as Schwinn branded outsourced components.

I think celluloid (nitrocellulose) was phased out as a material in the 1950s, except maybe for pingpong balls, because it's so flammable.

Fidbloke

I think SKS make white ones. I've seen them on new bikes in various shops. The only problem is that they have more modern rounded styling and the don't have that spear-point tip to the front mudguard. I suppose you could always have a go at trimming them back and cleaning up the edges.
Some of the prices being asked on eBay, for old sets of original Blumels celluloid mudguards are absolutely criminal. There are some people asking nearly £120 per set for NOS ones.!!!

FrancoSuisse

I had three bikes with Britannia mudguards, where I was the original purchaser. A Raleigh Grand Prix bought about 1959, a Raleigh Gran Sport that I got in 62, and a 1963 Carlton Franco Suisse.

C.E.& J.P. Britton Ltd fenders disappeared (last record I could find was 1991)?

All I know is I never personally saw Bluemels on any '60s shipped Raleigh, but I see them on all the restored ones. I am not old enough to have seen a 48 Record Ace (at least not old enough to know what a bicycle was).

I do know that Bluemels was a very old company started in 1860! Bluemel Brothers, then the mudguards at least bought by SKS. From the SKS site: Pumps and mudguards -- In 1983, through the acquisition of English heritage brand Bluemels, branded as SKS mudguards. 1988 started the serial production of extruded mudguards after taking over the ESGE-production as Chromoplastics ...

So Bluemels could have been on early Raleigh's. Edit: by the way none of my Raleigh's came with the "spear point" front mudguard, all were like the "Popular" or Modern SKS blunt shape.

FrancoSuisse

Recently saw a pair of the early "made in England" ones, for $299 on ebay. That is why I posted my $25 SKS mudguards, which for me at least, look the same as the smooth Populars, and I hate the white mudflaps.

OLDYELLR

There was an eBay vendor in Cyprus selling NOS Bluemels mudguards 7 years ago for £26 a set and I bought some for a project bike. Apparently he had bought a container load of stuff when Bluemels went out of business.

dweenk

noglider - Did you ever try this? If it works, I am going to buy 2 sets of chromo-plastics tomorrow.

noglider 

No, I didn't. I ended up running the cable over the rear rack to the tail light.

I could take an ohmmeter to the fenders to see if it is correct. I won't be able to do it until next week.

dweenk

Don't bother, I can do that. I have one set of chromo-plastics on a bike with battery lights. I thought that he aluminum was a foil, that was sandwiched between an upper and lower layer of plastic. I'll examine mine and get back to you.

dweenk

I just checked. As I suspected the aluminum is encased in plastic. There are 3 foil sections (left, right, and center) separated by 2 plastic sections, but the braces for the fender stays connect the 3 sections - not well, electrically speaking, but it looks like a high impedance short to me. Bad photo follows.

Gilbert321

They did burst into flame. I set my dad's bike on fire as a kid and for the next 58 years of her life, my mum never stopped reminding me of it.