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Need little help to date and identify a Claud Butler frame

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Need little help to date and identify a Claud Butler frame

Old 04-19-10, 02:19 PM
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Need little help to date and identify a Claud Butler frame

Hello!
I need a little help to date and identify a Claud Butler frame. I think its a New Allrounder from 1951 but I'm not sure. Bilaminated lugs typ 1, "spaghetti" script logo, double box lining on all tubes except headtube, no luglining.

Has several numbers on bottom bracket shell:
near downtube: "2791" - an "8" is stamped over the "9"
thereover: "516" - under the "1" maybe a thin "9"
near chainstay: 3489(L?) - I can't exactly identify the last digit - number or letter?
also near chainstay an apart "2"

Thanks for any effort! Ralph
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Old 04-19-10, 02:31 PM
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Late forties, early fifties. It's a beauty too. DO NOT REFINISH IT!!! i think it's a great find. A REAL Claud Butler.
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Old 04-19-10, 02:35 PM
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Welcome,

I don't know much about Claud Butlers but I have had a couple of British bikes from the the late 40's and I would think that your bike fits a '51 time frame.

I imagine that you sanded off the paint to show the serial # on the BB shell because you are planning on re-finishing the bike. I would not do that again if you come across another. That bike is worth WAY more as is than re-finished. If you want to show the serial # in a pic you can just rub over it with a contrasting colour crayon. It will fill the serial # and not be destructive.

Clean/Wax/Polish, preserve the "honest wear" and honor "the old soldiers"

vjp
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Old 04-19-10, 10:51 PM
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what a thing of beauty!
a shame to c*ck it up...so pleeeease, restore it.
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Old 04-20-10, 06:33 AM
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Bikes: 1940s Fothergill, 1959 Allegro Special, 1963? Claud Butler Olympic Sprint, Lambert 'Clubman', 1974 Fuji "the Ace", 1976 Holdsworth 650b conversion rando bike, 1983 Trek 720 tourer, 1984 Counterpoint Opus II, 1993 Basso Gap, 2010 Downtube 8h, and...

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What a beauty!

Guys, the first picture shows the frame with dropout protectors still in place, like it just came out of a shipping box. So let's give OP the benefit of the doubt and assume the previous owner sanded down the serial number. OP is clearly interested in what model the frame is, presumably for a restoration. Right, Jagermeister?

As for what it is, all I can add is that your '531' decal typically means straight gauge main frame tubes. There's a bigger decal (that you don't have) that says 531 butted frame tubes, stays and forks.

There are a few early 50's Claud Butler catalogs on the internet... I trust you found 'em? Here's a page from '53:

How do you do an umlaut?
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Old 04-20-10, 06:54 AM
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Lots of Claud Butler info including catalogs here:

https://homepage.ntlworld.com/nkilgariff/ClaudButler.htm

and here:

https://www.classicrendezvous.com/Bri...aud_butler.htm

As far as dating it, I'd suggest pulling the fork and seeing what's stamped on the steerer. That number should match one of the sets of numbers on the BB, and the usual code for CBs of this era is that it'll have two sets of four numbers each with the second set indicating year and month of build (e.g. 4911 = Nov. 1949).

Neal
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Old 04-20-10, 08:45 AM
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Originally Posted by vjp

If you want to show the serial # in a pic you can just rub over it with a contrasting colour crayon. It will fill the serial # and not be destructive.
I did it at first. It gave a poor result....
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Old 04-20-10, 10:12 AM
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@all Thanks for replies. First I planned to repaint the frame in original finish with new decals. But I'm persuaded. I'll overhaul the painting, wax, polish and rebuild the bike with period corrct parts, Nos Williams crankset, Airlites, Dunlop steel rims, GB stem, bars, brakes and levers. But I add for consideration: The pics look much better than the frame... In case it doesn't look good I'll give the frame to an old varnisher who masters old emanel techniques. I'think a frame like this has more than one "life" and earned in case of doubt a new finish...

@rhm "umlaut" because it's my name... I'm a Kraut

@Neal and rhm I know all these cataloques and all pictures. I never saw a "spaghetti" script logo and this rich lining on a New Allrounder. Lugwork is type 3 (CB catalologue 1949, type 1 CB cataloque 1953)

I'll remove the fork and see on the steerer

Additional information: There is a fourth number on bottom bracket shell - a "9" or "6" between the chainstays. There are no braze ons on the frame.

Ralph
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Old 04-20-10, 11:12 AM
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Ralph, that sounds great.

Do you have access to all these parts? NOS?

Fixed gear, single speed, or what? I'd recommend a Sturmey Archer 4 speed hub as both period-correct and a lot of fun. I have an FW on my 1950 Norman and I really like it. I know the FM is considered racier, but where I live we have some hills... and the gearing of the FW suits me. Though I am planning to build up another one with an FM hub when I find the appropriate frame....

If you've never seen this script logo and boxlining before (I sure haven't), all the more reason to leave it alone. This is original, authentic, real. Do it over, no matter how close to the original, and you lose all that. No matter how perfectly you do it, some will doubt its accuracy.

Why NOS? I, personally, would go for slightly weathered parts to match the frame.

Here's a photo of my Norman. Finish and most parts --mudguards included-- are original. I must admit the condition of the bike is a little troubling to me; it's in such good shape I almost hesitate to ride it. Almost. Still, I'd feel more comfortable riding the heck out of it if someone else had ridden the heck out of it before me!

My umlaut question was how, not why; and not entirely serious. If proper diacritic marks were that important to me, I would have figured it out by now, right? Fortunately my name doesn't require umlautation.

Rudi

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Old 04-20-10, 11:36 AM
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Your serial number dates it at June 1951 and that's the New Allrounder bilaminated "lugs."
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Old 04-20-10, 11:48 AM
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A Bastide twin plate fork crown was on the 1951 New Allrounder (like yours) and not listed as being on the 1952 and later New Allrounders. The Avant Coureur model preceded the New Allrounder in having that hatchet-shaped lug design, but the AV didn't have the Bastide twin plate fork crown. Thus further clues that you have a 1951 New Allrounder. Box lining on your bike could have been an add-on... Claud Butler did what the customer wanted.
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Old 04-20-10, 12:36 PM
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Thank you very much Peter!
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Old 04-20-10, 02:47 PM
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Hi Jagermeister (Sorry, no idea how to insert an Umlaut),

Your CB is beautiful. The "Spaghetti script" down tube decal also ties in to an early 1950's model. My 1953 all-original, one previous owner from new, Claud Butler Silver Jubilee has the same logo. Your build list sounds perfect, similar to mine! Have you considered clear coating what's left of the original finish to preserve it in it's current condition and appearance? The "patina of age" looks great!
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Old 04-20-10, 09:24 PM
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another 1951 New Allrounder

Here's photos of a 1951 New Allrounder that Hilary Stone offered to the CR listserver. Style of downtube script doesn't seem significant for dating purposes. I have photos of New Allrounders from various years with your downtube script and the larger script.
cb_newallrounder_1951a..jpgcb_newallrounder_1951b..jpg
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Old 04-21-10, 08:01 AM
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Hi Rudi,
I'll rebuild the CB as an fixed single speed. There is a great FG community in Leipzig. Landscape around the town is very suitable for fixed gear riding: Lowlands as far as the eye can see.

Like your Norman. Looks very good - espacially the original painting. Maybe it's a half size too small for you. I know the problem. I'm 6' 3''...

Only the Williams crankset and the Lyotard sprint pedals are NOS. All other parts are old and used. But the are aged in dignity - real vintage surface.

And at last: The diacretic marks. I misunderstood only the question, not the jest. You have three possibilities.
1st: Marry a german woman (theirs names often contains umlauts), assume her name, buy a german computer keyboard an use the umlaut keys to sign all your documents.
2nd: Don't marry a german woman. Buy a "qwertz" keyboard, set your computer language to German an use the umlaut keys.
3rd: Don't marry a german woman and don't buy a "qwertz" keyboard. Use ASCII combinations https://www.disknet.com/indiana_biolab/ger004.htm

Ralph
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Old 04-21-10, 10:36 AM
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Hi Oldpeddaller
Clear coating is a good idea but now I've decided me for a reversible restoration. Only Japan lacquer for the sanded spots and for the rest wd40, car polish, wax and pigments.

Thanks for the pics, Peter. The surface condition of this New Allrounder has encouraged me to do this. Compared to the white finish the painting of my CB is in excellent condition By the way: I bought the frame from Hilary. He dated it also to 1951 but he was in doubt about the model. What is the CR listserver? Never heard abou it.

Ralph
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Old 04-26-10, 07:24 AM
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Ralph, the CR listserver is the Classic Rendevous listserver, with a focus on 1983 and earlier vintage bikes (or post 1983 Keeper of the Flame lugged bikes. It has 1,700 subscribers and I learned a lot over time from it and its members. It has an archives of back messages which are a good source for information. Here's info on it https://www.phred.org/mailman/listinfo/classicrendezvous and here's the archives https://search.bikelist.org/
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