I have two old road frames. One is a bit small for me (56cm) and the other is bit large for me (60cm)

One each one, with my seat raised to the proper Lemond Formula-based height, and the stem raised up to the minimum insertion point, I still have about 3" of drop on each bike.

I'm not surprised the 56cm Miyata has that much drop, but the other bike in an old Medici touring frame.

I know for a fact the larger frame is not too small for me. It's larger than the 58cm Surly Crosscheck that fits me perfectly. On that bike, I have 1" of drop.

Doesn't make much sense to me. Do you have profile photos of both bikes as currently set up? Are the stems the same length above min insertion? Do either have negative rise? The Medici might have a higher BB, but 6 centimeters worth? Higher BB would raise the top tube anyway...sure it's not a TT funny bike?

Okay, I just clicked on your sig links. Is that how they are currently set up? Not the best views to compare, but it appears the Medici stem clamp is about level with your saddle?

Drop seems to go in and out of fashion depending on who is designing and spec'ing the bikes. I remember MTB's having 3" of drop in '90 or so.

I was just spending some time re-fitting my old road bikes with traditional quill stems. So the pics are very out of date. Yes, if I use a stem adapter and use a threadless stem flipped up, then I can have my bars nearly level with the saddle. But since my quill stems are fairly short, I was thinking they would work since the bars would be lower, but closer.

I also wonder if it could be something with my geometry. I have pretty long legs, so I jack my saddle up pretty high. But on the Medici frame, my standover clearance is pretty much zero. My long legs make my torso short, but I also have pretty long arms.

I'm hoping the bike feels OK when I go out and ride it like this. I haven't ridden either of my old frames in a while.

Saddle to bar drop is not a fashion statement, it is in fact the result of fitting for performance vs fitting for comfort.

It does seem like a lot of people suddenly think they need to jack the handlebars up higher than the saddle but the fact is that 3 to 4 inches of drop are entirely normal and common on a bike set up for and designed for road racing and for many people, including me, is more comfortable. I could not imagine riding a bike with the bars even with the saddle or higher, that must be awfully uncomfortable with all that seat pressure not to mention horribly inefficient not only from aerodynamics but also from the point of human physiology.

Back in the day (1970's), the drop was not as extreme as it is today - either for competitive, or recreational riding. For competitive riding, 3" of drop was well within the normal range. For recreational riding - not so much.

On stock frames, the generality is that riders with long legs (and short torsos) need to show a lot of seat post. Riders with long arms can tolerate a lower handlebar because they can reach down farther.

Your bikes certainly don't look radical. The Surly setup actually looks a lot like the way I set up my Raleigh International in the early 1970s, but my arms and legs are long. We who are built this way have always set up our bikes like this.

Back in the day 3 inches was a big drop for recreational riding. 2 inches was more the norm.
I see lots of old steeds with 3+ inches of drop. To me, it looks funny as I rode those bikes when they were new (and rode with others of course) and 2- 2 1/2 inches was all anyone ran before moving on to a bigger frame.
Time and fashions change. But the bend in your spine doesn't. If I had to choose between two vintage bikes for a century tomorrow I would pick the 2 inch drop over the 3 inch drop every time.

+1 Back in the day (1970s), riders tended to be put on bigger frames. So if anything, much less seat post was exposed. So in the 1970s, I was put onto a 61cm frame (24 inch). I now ride a 56cm (22 inch). By any measure, a two inch difference in frame size is a lot. Needless to say, I had very little seat post showing at all on the 61cm frame. So on that bike, even if I had the stem down as low as it would go, seat was just about level with handlebars.

Lemond, in his book, recommended 2-3 inches. A lot depends on your height, torso length, arm length and comfort level. Most folks (not all) seem to find that as they get older they can not ride as comfortably for long distances with the same drop they used when they were younger.

Okay, try taking your argument to a cyclotourist. We're not all trying to shave 5 seconds off our training loop time, TYVM.

I'm figuring I'll try it with a lower, shorter stem and see how that feels. I also put on shorter reach bars with shallower drops.

I'm still confused how you have an equal saddle to bar drop on both frames if your saddle to pedal distance and stem height above the headset are the same.

I have about 8 cm of drop when I am out of shape, 10 cm when I have been riding for a while.

How the original poster got where he states is beyond new math, something else is different. Dyna Drive pedals?

For me the amount of drop, seat post showing, and stem showing is as much as aesthetic thing to me. Of course, the drop should be appropriate for your level of fitness and flexibility. But while I can't quantify it for you, a bike just "looks right" when the seat post and stem are "right". That narrows it down doesn't it?! Am I alone?

On the Miyata, I may have the seat lower since I use it with platform pedals as opposed to clipless and it has a more slack geometry.

I have a pretty big drop between my saddle and stem, compared to most,



............but certainly not the worst that I've seen in this forum. Even I, sometimes start wondering if I have it all wrong on my bike when I see my own pics of it, but the thing is, I feel very comfortable with the amount of drop I have been riding with since the 80's despite the big gap of non-bicycle riding years in between. One thing I notice is my ability to avoid weighting the bars too much even at the lowest position. There seems to be some muscle memory in my body to support the weight of my upper body, using muscles in my torso. I think seemed to have retained this ability because I also ride sport motorcycles with low bars. in the intervening years when I stopped riding bicycles for a while. It also must help that my body proportions are of long legs and arms and whortish torso. Maybe my case explains why some bikes are set up with saddles and stems that look almost impossible different in height for some people.

Chombi

So, there are additional factors we've not discussed. Do you generally ride the tops or the drops? I have to say, those are fairly deep drops (at least they look it on a small frame - Cinelli 64s?). Do you ride the hoods much, because if so...ouch!

But I think you hit the nail on the head in your comments: ride what's comfortable for you and what keeps you riding.

The bar's a Mavic model 350. It has more of a "criterium" bend to it where the bars drop quickly (but not as much as track bars) after just a little bit of a flat portion right next to the stem. I think it actually has a deeper drop than the Mavic Model 351 SSC bars. I ride mostly on the hoods and the drops and only go to the top to stretch out once in a while.


Chombi

I like a lot of drop, I am entirely comfortable on this bike:



or this one:



and several others I have. I could not imagine ever having the bars up even to the saddle, that must be horribly uncomfortable to do that?

Of course from all of you guys with the handle bars jacked way up something like this would be perfections I suppose:



I bet this guy (bike came from an estate sale) died from hemorrhoids as a result of bicycleseatstuffedinass syndrome with all of the weight on his posterior.

Thank you!

Well, I've done metric and imperial centuries on bikes with level bars and saddles, and my hands, wrists, shoulders, neck and back weren't sore at all afterwards? And cyclotourists prefer bars level with or higher than the saddle? Must be comfortable to many?

Recently I felt I was putting too much pressure on my hands and wrists. I raised the stem on my bike just a touch lower than the saddle and I can say with confidence that I feel more balanced. It may not be right for everyone but I have been enjoying that particular bike a lot more.

We are all different and there is a reason seatposts and stems are adjustable.

My bikes have drops in the 3-5" range. That's what works for me.

For those who advocate substantially higher stems, remember that part of fit and riding performance is weight distribution. The higher the stem, the more weight on your butt.

Now, what I don't get are the pics of bikes I see with the stem substantially above the seat and Brooks saddles pointing up towards the sky. Literally, I doubt I could ride a bike set up that way.

BTW, each and everyone of you should devote a 10 minutes everyday to progressive stretching. It will do wonders for all of those sore backs and necks you complain about.