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-   -   Sturmey Archer surprise - what is this hub? (https://www.bikeforums.net/classic-vintage/660486-sturmey-archer-surprise-what-hub.html)

Chris_in_Miami 07-07-10 09:06 PM

Sturmey Archer surprise - what is this hub?
 
I went out for a spin on my Moulton today and noticed some minor noise from the rear hub, so I decided to give it the deluxe rebuild. When I pulled the innards out, I didn't recognize them as AW parts, though that's what it says on the hub (and the date code is 68.)

It shifts through all three gears with a standard 3-speed shifter, so it's compatible with the shifter and the hub shell.

Does anyone recognize this unit?

* Edit - I'm thinking it may be the bits from a 4-speed FW, which came on earlier Moultons, but mine's a Mk III. The FW internals fit into an AW shell.

http://lh5.ggpht.com/_TIeBxBH6dXI/TD...ey_innards.jpg

Got a pic of the bike too :)

http://lh3.ggpht.com/_TIeBxBH6dXI/TD...moulton_05.jpg

gna 07-07-10 10:00 PM

Sure look like FW innards: http://www.sheldonbrown.com/sturmey-archer/fw.html and http://www.sturmey-archerheritage.co...s/pic-63.1.jpg
Good luck finding a 4 speed trigger and other bits; maybe Bikesmith has some.

You could possibly upgrade the hub to a 5 speed, with the right parts.

Oh, nice bike--bring it to Lake Pepin next spring.

JohnDThompson 07-07-10 10:08 PM


Originally Posted by gna (Post 11076863)
Sure look like FW innards: http://www.sheldonbrown.com/sturmey-archer/fw.html and http://www.sturmey-archerheritage.co...s/pic-63.1.jpg
Good luck finding a 4 speed trigger and other bits; maybe Bikesmith has some.

You could possibly upgrade the hub to a 5 speed, with the right parts.

Oh, nice bike--bring it to Lake Pepin next spring.

Or even ABCE this fall... :)

cudak888 07-07-10 10:17 PM

The S5 and S5-2 innards also fit in an AW shell, and they look uncannily similar to the FW's.

Is the indicator chain of this hub identical to an AW? If so - and assuming this isn't a bell-crank S5, if an S5 - can you thread the indicator through the other side of the hub as well, and pull it outwards towards you?

-Kurt

Chris_in_Miami 07-08-10 07:32 AM

Thanks for the tips, I'll check the left side with an indicator rod tonight. I'll pin down the exact model when I'm able to tear it completely down this weekend, now that I have a shorter list of possible candidates.

I'm planning to ride with a group on Saturday, so I'll temporarily install an already-rebuilt internal mech from a spare AW that I have on hand. This bike really needs a smaller cog, I spin out in top gear pretty easily.

As for the shifter, I should be able to cobble something together for the 4-speed range, but the 5-speed conversion would be really nice.

I'd love to ride in the ABCE or Lake Pepin events, they're on my short list.

rhm 07-08-10 09:00 AM

I gather you didn't notice anything funny about the indicator chain/rod, when you removed it; so I'm thinking it must be an S5. A four-speed indicator comes in two pieces. One goes in from the left, the other from the right, and they thread together in the middle. The left one has a straight groove for a flat screwdriver, the right looks like an AW style indicator when installed. If that's what you have, you wouldn't have been able to unscrew it at all; it would just spin between your fingers.

Nice bike, by the way!

Chris_in_Miami 07-08-10 09:17 AM

Yes, the indicator is similar to an AW, it sounds like you've nailed it down for me. It wasn't clear to me from the descriptions of the four-speed hubs that the indicator is entirely different, thanks for the clarification!

Is the indicator for the left side still available, or will I need to modify an AW chain to fit?

gna 07-08-10 09:54 AM

Bikesmith may have the indicator. From the links, below, the old number was HSA420 or 421 for the S5/2. The AW was HSA125.

http://sheldonbrown.com/sturmey-archer/s52.html
http://www.sheldonbrown.com/sturmey-archer_5-spd.html

I would try an AW indicator and see if it works.

rhm 07-08-10 10:03 AM

1 Attachment(s)

Originally Posted by Chris_in_Miami (Post 11078433)
Yes, the indicator is similar to an AW, it sounds like you've nailed it down for me. It wasn't clear to me from the descriptions of the four-speed hubs that the indicator is entirely different, thanks for the clarification!

Is the indicator for the left side still available, or will I need to modify an AW chain to fit?

If you took a normal looking indicator out of it, you don't have a four-speed hub. But to answer your question, the four-speed indicator is a totally different animal from the AW-type indicator. You'd need to be a good machinist to convert one.

Lemme see if I can attach a photo.... These indicators are hard to find; but no worries, I'm pretty sure you don't need one.

cudak888 07-08-10 01:41 PM


Originally Posted by Chris_in_Miami (Post 11078433)
Is the indicator for the left side still available, or will I need to modify an AW chain to fit?

The S5's that operate with a second indicator on the left side will take the same indicator on the left as a standard AW would have on the right - the only thing of concern is to ensure that the indicator rod length is correct.

-Kurt

nlerner 07-08-10 03:30 PM

The one S5 I've dealt with had a push rod on the left side with a bell crank mechanism. Was there a variant with a screw on indicator?

Neal

cudak888 07-08-10 03:42 PM


Originally Posted by nlerner (Post 11080560)
The one S5 I've dealt with had a push rod on the left side with a bell crank mechanism. Was there a variant with a screw on indicator?

You bet.

There is a chance that this might be designed for the bell-crank though; it's the right era for it.

-Kurt

Grand Bois 07-08-10 04:23 PM

The S5-2 uses an indicator spindle. Mine is dated 1982. All you need to do to make it work is set up a friction shifter and cable. I used a Suntour ratcheting thumb shifter. I like mine so much that I'm looking for another. It adds a higher high and a lower low to the 3 speed and that's just what I needed.

http://inlinethumb20.webshots.com/47...600x600Q85.jpg

http://inlinethumb62.webshots.com/39...600x600Q85.jpg

Chris_in_Miami 07-08-10 04:46 PM

Well, it's an S5 of the bellcrank variety, rats! I'll probably have to search far and wide for one of those, but I saw Sheldon Brown's suggestion on modifying a Shimano unit, and they're plentiful.

I sure would love to have the "super high" gear on this bike, it only goes so fast with the AW ratios...

Grand Bois 07-08-10 05:02 PM

like gna said, contact Mike Stonich at Bikesmith Design & Fabrication.

http://bikesmithdesign.com/

Chris_in_Miami 07-08-10 05:34 PM


Originally Posted by Grand Bois (Post 11080955)
like gna said, contact Mike Stonich at Bikesmith Design & Fabrication.

http://bikesmithdesign.com/

Done, crossing my fingers.

Grand Bois 07-08-10 06:16 PM

I recall reading that he makes the pushrod for that hub out of a nail.

He's a Sturmey Archer guru. So is Hilary Stone in the UK. I got mine from him. It runs quiet and doesn't leak any oil.

tcs 07-09-10 07:34 AM

S-A's first patent for a 5-speed was in 1921. Never a company given to rash
moves, they eventually released a 5-speed to the riding public 45 years later.

S5: 1966-1976 LH bell crank 225% overall
S5-1: 1977-1981 Dual indicator chains
S5-2: 1981-1990
5 StAr: 1991-1993 First NIG mechanism
Sprinter: 1993-1999 First single cable design
Summit: 1999-2008 Ball Locking. Last British designed 5-speed
(W): 2009- First SunRace designed 5-speed 256% overall

tcs

Chris_in_Miami 07-09-10 05:50 PM

Mark at Bikesmith has a few bellcranks, I ordered one this afternoon. He also pointed out the nail-as-a-pushrod trick... Big thanks to gna!

Grand Bois 07-09-10 10:21 PM


Originally Posted by Chris_in_Miami (Post 11086972)
Mark at Bikesmith has a few bellcranks, I ordered one this afternoon. He also pointed out the nail-as-a-pushrod trick... Big thanks to gna!

See if I ever offer any help to you again.

Chris_in_Miami 07-10-10 12:17 PM


Originally Posted by Grand Bois (Post 11088083)
See if I ever offer any help to you again.

What does that mean?

Grand Bois 07-10-10 01:27 PM

It means that I resent the fact that gna got big thanks and I got none.

Chris_in_Miami 07-10-10 06:15 PM


Originally Posted by Grand Bois (Post 11089988)
It means that I resent the fact that gna got big thanks and I got none.

No slight intended, put me on your ignore list if you choose. Big thanks to you, Kurt, nlerner, rhm, tcs, and JohnDThompson.

gna 07-11-10 02:25 PM


Originally Posted by Grand Bois (Post 11089988)
It means that I resent the fact that gna got big thanks and I got none.

There's plenty of thanks to go around. I'd thank you if you show more pictures of that excellent bicycle of yours.

Grand Bois 07-11-10 09:42 PM


Originally Posted by gna (Post 11094129)
There's plenty of thanks to go around. I'd thank you if you show more pictures of that excellent bicycle of yours.

Just click on one of the pictures.


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