A very broad question about Italian frames
 

I have only a little knowledge about Italian frames (but ask me about Land Sharks, Treks, Cannondales, Litespeeds and I'm good to go).

In many respects, the Italian frames seem to be the grail for many collectors. Although I know these things are subjective, is there any concensus regarding which brands and models are both the most rideable and collectible?

Thanks

RFC

I'm sure the collective wisdom of this group will sort this out.

I enjoy Zullos, Tommasinis, and De Rosas a great deal. I'm not much of a collector, but I love the way these bikes ride/perform in general.

I've owned some nice Colnagos as well throughout the last thirty years.

I have a couple of lesser known Italian brands as well.......

Columbus steel is the common thread......

edit: I'll add one more bike to my favs, a Grandis. A buddy picked one up at a garage sale last week, and we've been working on it for about a week. The paint is shot, I mean terrible, as the bike sat on a trainer and was sweated on for a decade. We rebuilt the wheels and replaced the consumables. I road it yesterday and I am first in line if he decides to part ways with her.

Initial opinion? A true keeper. Now about that paint!

I've had Colnago, Billato, and Scapin. All ride/have ridden very well. I think the general Italian geometry is to have a longish top tube. This would go with what I once heard someone say about Italian road bikes when compared to others:

On most bikes, a rider sits atop the frame. With Italian bikes, it seems the rider sits in the frame.

My experience is that they are over-square, long on top relative to the seat tube, but seem to have quick geometry, probably based on the head tube angle/fork rake. Almost all have a pretty narrow gap from the seat tube to the rear wheel.

80's Italian frames were pretty nice, but had generally temporary decals, and the paint, for some reason, didn't like sweat. I've seen many that look like dookie now, but ride great. I've upgraded a few for myself and others, and that's never been hard to do.

My 55cm Bianchi just looks right and feels right. The top tube is about the same length as that on my Capos, but the wheelbase is shorter, which is consistent with the evolution of racing geometries as European roads got smoother. Even cheap Italian bikes tend to ride well.

i only have riding experience with one italian frame-- Grandis-- which i raced on in the 80s before it was stolen. fast forwarding 20-odd years, i was gifted a Grandis in my size after reconnecting w/cycling again in the last year. http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread...+dirty+grandis

all i can say is that it seems more like wearing the bike than riding on it; it has a combination of characteristics that is just amazing-- light, stiff, but supple, climbs well, handles like a sportscar, goes where you are thinking about going, and it just screams 'Italian-ness' just sitting there.

LOTS of great Italian manufacturers:
Colnago, DeRosa, Pinarello, Bianchi, Basso, Olmo, Masi, Rossin, Gios, Guerciotti, Ciocc, Tommasini, Zullo, Moser, Masi, Cinelli, Bottecchia...
Not a complete list, mind you! Pretty much any of these are great to ride, great to collect.
Bianchi would be the only one of this list that would have made "lesser quality, not-so-much collectible" bikes. But only because they had a pretty broad range of price points that they were hitting back in the day. Most of all the other manufacturers pretty much stuck to making high end race & touring bikes.

DeRosa. Period. Anything else is just... well, inadequate. (Tho' I will admit I've never seen or ridden an Italian Masi.)

SP
Bend, OR

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4007/...fb199f2f_o.jpg

The pictured De Rosa is my favorite bike, and De Rosa is my favorite brand.

The only issues I have with the brand relate to gluttony!

Where to put all of them and how to stop the acquisition of another.

This downturn in the economy has made some incredible bikes available and affordable.

Built for speed:
http://lh3.ggpht.com/_yN4-Z85dhz0/Sa...0/P3033071.JPG

If you need some help with storage Grady, just let me know.

Thanks! :)

Next time you're in town, let me know!

@OFG - The nicest of the super nice De Rosas. Not so many around that are in the same ballpark as yours!

Inadequate??? I think not.

http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i2...e/DSCF0245.jpg

Mutt

Well yes, Tommasinis are very nice bikes.

Nice, fine details.

Great ride characteristics as well.

Here's a pic of my Sintesi before the kids helped me do a swap to Campy 10 speed Chorus.

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2691/...113ff120_o.jpg

I wish you could see the bike in person!

She positively glows with charm.

I think that's the problem with the forum. The pictures of the bikes never look as good as they do in person.

Mutt

Well, in my case sir, I took crappy fotos as a kid, and I still do at the age of 52.

Yes, I know I could try harder, but your point is well taken.

The C.O.N.I. manual published in 1972 to coincide with the Munich Olympic Games has lots of good information on the geometry and fit of Italian bikes in general. Part 2, Chapter 5, Modalities for constructing a frame to measure, is a wonderful tutorial on then current Italian thought on custom frame geometry for racing bikes.

I have the chapter in English as a 321 kB pdf. PM me with your e-mail address if you'd like a copy e-mailed to you.

http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d7...CLINGCover.jpg

Doesn't it say Rome right on the cover? I have a copy... I like the part about putting a lettuce leaf under your cap to keep cool!

such a provocatuer...... :innocent:

A Pinarello Montello owner may well disagree. Brand loyalty is a wonderful thing, though.
Actually, after Sophia Loren, anything else is just, well, Italian.

I had a modern (2002), but still 'really made in Italy' - Casati. Wish i still had it. Never ridden one of their C&V frames, though.

I have a Casati Gold Line S.


http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4078/...6104da42_b.jpg


http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4099/...183ce727_b.jpg


Lots of details left to complete on her, but you'll get the general picture.

Picked it up at a garage sale of all things a year or two ago.

Handles well, and sports some of the nicer frame details you'd ever want to see.

I was tempted to have it painted pearl white, like their recent anniversary model, but I wasn't able to get the correct pearl finish on test strips.

It's all for the better, our oldest son has it set up for a 100 mile gravel road event/race coming up in southern Minnesota in the near future.

Sort of a Minnesota prairie meets L'Eroica affair.

The mind reals at this analogy, but many of my riding buddies did the spring event.

It's called the Almanzo 100.

My son stuffed the largest Paselas he could on the bike, and put on a Centaur track crank.

Yep, a hundo on a single speed Casati.

Should be a hoot.

I guess I'm just echoing Gomango for the most part, but for me the pinnacle of an Italian bike is a De Rosa. I had a Grandis, which was unfortunately not my size, and it was just beautiful. I can't really judge the ride quality, but man that thing looked awesome. The gentleman who purchased it has reported back saying he loves it.

I personally dislike Colnagos, as I've said before, on both ride quality and aesthetics. I've found them twitchy, especially on descents, and just generally unstable. I have a limited pool of knowledge...I've ridden 3 and that was in the late 80s, early 90s. From an aesthetic standpoint, I find them gairsh a lot of the time. Says the guy who lusts for a Hetchins.

I've never ridden a Masi or a 70's Cinelli, and I think many would argue those belong with De Rosa, so I can't comment. When I think italian, I think De Rosa, Cinelli and Masi...in that order.

The one Scapin that I briefly owned was FAR too large, but I'll say the paint job was done piss poorly and if I had spent thousands on it, I'd be furious. The chrome was also done poorly.

Realistically, above a certain quality point one brand is going to be about the same as another. Ride characteristics might differ because of different geometries, but the materials and construction methods are going to be pretty much the same.

To answer the original poster's inquiry as he is experience with the I am assuming modern bikes of Litespeed, Cannondale, Trek, and I might have left one out, what does he think of those? And what size(s)?

I agree geometry is the bigger difference, and it is subtle, and top tube length can make a difference.
The Italian brands mentioned so far are all over the map as far as how they match top tube lengths to set tube sizes, and that can make or break an assessment of a bike.

In my experience, Colnagos have the highest resale value while De Rosas are the most collectible. My Cioccs ride incredibly well and feel a lot like the De Rosa but the De Rosa is just a bit more comfy after a few hours. That may have more to do with the components though.