snarkypup

... You go for a 12 mile ride, wearing padded gloves (fingerless in 30 degree weather -- hey it was 50 degrees at my house up on the hill! -- which explains the red fingertips), and your hand looks like this at the end.


redhand by snarkypup, on Flickr

Yes, I switched positions frequently. Sheesh, it hurt, though it's fine now. The old tape (which is 22 years-old, after all) is thin and sticky. I'm reluctant to switch it though, as I'm still deciding on whether or not to get a longer stem. I am obviously putting a lot of weight on my hands, but my elbows aren't locked, I'm mostly on the hoods and my back is nicely stretched out. My neck still crunches from looking up, but not as badly as it did when I bought the bike. And my neck is naturally crunchy, for various reasons. My legs feel great at the current saddle height. I feel like the stem is pretty high already, and it's set as high as it can go.

Is this a sign I should get a longer stem? Or would just switching out the tape help?

Here's the current set-up. I wish I had photos of me on the bike, but I haven't had anyone around when I'm riding (not coincidentally, I go out when the kids are out and about with my partner). I know, I need to just hop on the dang thing and let him take a photo of me riding around the cul-de-saq. But he's sort of camera-inept and I can just see the blur already.


panasonicposing4 by snarkypup, on Flickr

In other news, I polished up the white Selle Italia Turbo RobbieTunes sent me in trade for my old Avocet, and it looks pretty good and more importantly, feels PERFECT. I hardly notice its existence, which is what saddles are supposed to feel like, right? The bike's original skin-walled Pasellas are cracking, so I ordered up some new tires today. White Vittoria Zaffiros to try. If I hate them, or they are just too much whiteness, I'm not out much and can stick them on something else later. I plan to do a charity bike rehab or two later (that's another story), so I'll put them to good use if I hate 'em on this bike.

Thoughts on stems? I know it needs new padded tape. That much is obvious even to me!

pastorbobnlnh 

Fantastic line! Very sharp looking Panasonic.

Try a stem which has a higher reach. Adjust the height until it feels better. Re-wrap the bars with new tape.

ftwelder

I think that leg strength ends up supporting more of the upper body weight as we gain strength. Raise your stem or get a taller one. At some future point, you may want to lower it again.

RobbieTunes

+1
Even that shouldn't hurt your hands like that.
A little up on the height, and those are some long-reach bars, too.
I'd look around for bars that have a smaller curve to them.

Wrap will help, and as you get stronger, you'll probably realize it was just position.

nlerner

Any chance your glove padding is worn out? I finally replaced my gloves this past year, and it made a world of difference.

Neal

sailorbenjamin

I actually went as far as switching to Northroads bars when I started cause I've had lots of back issues over the years. Now I'm comfy again on drops which means (I think) I'm progressing. I'm thinking of switching my main bike back to the drops but my friend just reminded me that it's kind of hard to bend that far with 2 shirts a sweater and a down jacket on. Maybe next spring.

pacificaslim

Of course making changes to weight balance is better so that you don't have to support yourself with your hands in the first place but once that has been done, adjust how you position your hands.

The area of your hand from between the thumb and forefinger web to the big red area on your hand has many nerves that can cause pain. So don't place that part on the bars. Resist the urge to hold your hands with your palms facing down towards the ground, and instead, rotate the hands so that the palms are facing each other. Reach out like you're shaking hands with someone and set your hands down just behind the brake hoods and then you can still reach around the brakes with your top two fingers, and when you need to brake harder (or shift for those of us with such shifters), you can rotate your palms down a bit if necessary, and then rotate them back inward when you're done.

This way your weight will be on the fleshier, naturally padded part on the outside of the hand (between pinky and wrist) and not on the nerves between thumb and forefinger or the base of the palm where you've discovered can get very painful!

mickey85

Ideally, padding shouldn't be NECESSARY (though it is nice) if your bike is set up properly. If you are putting that much weight on your hands, either find a shorter stem or raise this one.

Case in point. I have an '88 Nishiki Modulus that came with the deepest drops I've ever seen (literally, about 8" between the bottom of the drops and the curve up top). This, mated to a long, low stem, stretched me out, and (A) made the drops unusable and (B) made my hands hurt, because I was so stretched out and putting weight on them.

I swapped the stem for a shorter, taller one (have yet to replace the handebars, but will probably go with Nitto Noodles), and now have none of the problems I've had before (well, except for the riding the drops thing).

Another thing - the closer your bars are to your saddle, the easier it is to reach if they're placed lower. My 56cm Cannondale has fairly low bars, but I have no problems whatsoever with reach or hand pain than I do with an (identically set up saddle to bar drop) 58cm bike I have. I had to raise the bars on the 58, but didn't on the Cdale.

tashi

In my experience, too much weight on the hands can come from a low handlebar, the seat position pushing you forward, or both together.

Your bars look plenty high to me, and if your back is comfortable with that amount of drop than you're likely good there. Those are some deep drops and long tops on those bars - there are lots of bars with shorter reach on the tops and to the drops if you find you want to play with those dimensions. Shallower and shorter drops can make the drop position usable and comfortable without compromising the hoods position.

That brings us to the saddle position. The cockpit of that bike looks quite long to me, particularly compared to typical ladies set-ups which are often short relative to leg length. Your saddle looks pretty level and you say it's invisible when riding, so I assume you're not sliding towards the front (and therefore putting undue pressure on the bars). Sometimes this is barely noticeable, tilting the front of the saddle up a tiny bit may eliminate some forward slip that you didn't notice.

I would look at your saddle fore-aft position a bit as well. If it's really far back, it may be forcing you to scooch forward a bit to get comfortable reach, shifting your weight on to your hands. It seems counterintuitive, but in this situation sliding the saddle forward a bit could help with this as your sit bones (and most of your body weight) would be better supported by the saddle. This is actually how I start out fitting a bike - at the legs: get seat height good, get the fore-aft position right (front of the knee over the pedal axle at 3'oclock, then adjust for preference.) Then I reach forward and adjust the bar and stem as necessary to get the bars in the right position.

Softer bar tape and gel pads can help make things more comfortable, as can wider bigger brake levers, but I think that's a fine-tuning that should wait until position is sorted out. Nice cooshy bars can only mask position issues for so long.

Why do you feel that you need a longer stem?

pacificaslim

In my opinion, padded bars and overly padded gloves are like overly padded saddles: they just distribute the contact point over a larger area, cause blood flow problems, and end up causing more pain than firm saddles and bars. Try rotating your hands in so they aren't sitting on sensitive areas of the hand.

RavingManiac

I agree slim. I've used padded tapes and feel the cushioning is way overated. Not only that, I prefer the feel of a slender bar rather than the hand full of kielbasa feel. I've been using hockey tape exclusively. Looks like cloth tape, slender feel, cheap, good grip, and lots of color choices.

snarkypup

Hmmm, all this is super helpful, but somewhat confusing! I think the first order of business will be to trek out to Belltown Pull Apart later this week or next weekend to see if they have any higher stems that are cheap enough to be "try out" stems.

I have tilted the nose of the saddle up already. These Turbos are slippery. I thought you'd all notice and ask me about it, but no one has. I could move it forward, as it's definitely not all the way forward, but I'd moved it back so I could lower it. When I move it forward, I feel like I have to make it higher to get proper leg extension. Honestly, getting my leg nearly, but not completely, extended is the first thing I feel like I have to do to be comfy. It drives me nuts if I feel like I'm peddling like a monkey. But I can probably play with that a bit.

Gloves are new. It does the same thing to ride with my brand-new lobster-claw Gore gloves. So it's not the gloves. I'm riding with my hands sort of three-quarters on the tops of the bars near the hoods, not entirely. I can shift them more to the sides, and more often.

I never noticed the curve of the bars before. Yike! I don't see myself ever riding in the drops much, but I did notice that when I tried it out this weekend, my legs hit my stomach. I was completely doubled-over, which doesn't seem good. I see what you guys mean when you say there's a long reach out to the hoods, too. I don't really want to switch out too much of the original stuff, though... I wonder, would a stem that had the same reach, but was longer, solve all this? I would come up, and back, and that seems like it would bring the hoods closer and raise me up enough to take the pressure off my hands and my neck. Adding new bars into the equation just makes it harder for me to figure out what I'm doing!

Good news: I have no neck or back pain today, so while I feel very crunchy while I'm on the bike, it isn't doing anything serious. The redness on my hands disappeared within a half hour. That said, it bugs me to have to look up so much, angle-wise, and I think this is partially the nature of drop bars and my neck, and partially because I'm putting so much weight on my hands. I think being more Rivendell-esque on stem height would solve that, wouldn't it? And remember, I'm the one who finds my cork grips on my Sports too hard. I like cushy grips. Though I am much more comfortable on drop bars than I was at first. I was going rather fast yesterday at points, and was able to shift my hands all over the bars and feel in control. This on a trail that was icy and crowded. So I feel like I'm now able to assess what I want, and my discomfort is more than just being a road bike newb.

Road Fan

+1 to all of this!

In addition, excess weight on your hands can be reduced by moving your saddle back, just a 10th of an inch at a time. This will let your body center of gravity move backwards relative to teh pedals, and shift weight to your saddle rather than your handlebars. Go slow with this adjustment. Each time you do it, you might have to re-adjust saddle height and saddle angle.

Road Fan

You're right about the leg extension being the primary setting. And that if you move the saddle forward you should raise it a bit, and vice-versa if you move it back.

Tilting the saddle will alter the pressure distribution your undercarriage feels against the saddle, and in turn affects the buildup of pain that can occur on a longer ride. If you have an angle that works now, I'd suggest not changing it without a good reason, such as "my (insert name of body part here) hurts."

Your upper body angle and reach to the bars (and thigh/tummy contact) are a result of stem extension (the length of the horizontal part, i.e. the top of the "seven" shape), stem height (length of quill or the vertical section), position in the fork (sometimes this is not adjustable on small frames), and handlebar reach/depth. There are a lot of variables here. The key overall dimensions are the difference in height between the saddle and the bars (for a beginner or otherwise "just ride for fun" typically between 1 cm above saddle and 2 cm below), and the horizontal distance between the saddle middle and the handlebar (not predictable, you have to learn what works, but use a tape measure). Sometimes I look at the horizontal distance between the saddle center and the center of the brake hoods. Clearly there a lot of things that can be adjusted.

Where do you tend to grip the bars? That's a sign of what distance your body wants the 'bars to be at, or at least if there's a need for adjustment.

Regarding leg extension, be sensitive to your hips rocking and causing abrasion or chafing (saddle too high). Also be sensitive to pain or acheing on the front or around the sides of your knees (saddle too low, or insufficient leg extension). I find the correct position is between those two extremes and it is sensitive to a few millimeters error.

stien

That stem looks super super long. I would change that. Padded bar tape won't help much if you're on the hoods. I would personally skip it as your position will change favorably once you get a shorter stem (kudos if you can reuse your old tape, have to take one side off for the stem anyway).

White tires will look sweet on there. Post pics when they come in!

WalksOn2Wheels

Legs hitting your stomach definitely indicates a fitting issue. What size frame are you on and what is your height and inseam? Not that there is a true cookie cutter method here, but if I were on a 54 cm frame, my personal 6'2" frame would have my legs in my stomach as well. As an above poster said, it could also be saddle height and/or stem extension (fore and aft, not up and down).

bradtx

snarkypup, An old school guide to help determine if your stem is too long or not is to ride with your hands on the hoods. Then look down to the front axle. You shouldn't be able to see it as it will be hidden by the handlebar. This method can also help determine where to place the brake levers, so that's why this procedure is more of a guide, but it works for me.

I have a similar bend handlebar on my CAAD3 (Yours a Cinelli Eubios?). It may help to rotate the front downwards a bit. This will level out the drops somewhat and put the levers on the downside of the bend. FWIW it was a difficult handlebar to make comfortable for me. A before/after pic doesn't really show the subtle difference in tilt.

Brad

shorthanded

padded bar tape?

i was gonna fill that sentence to say 'you know you need padded bar tape...' : when hell freezes over.

raise your stem-- you shouldn't be putting that kinda weight on your hands- or much at all for that matter. it can't be the tape-- that, sir, is some sorta fit issue! the cold would aggravate it-- but you should be able to be in riding position over the hoods and not even be touching your bars (i.e.-- your core should do most of the work-- not your arms).

snarkypup

Okay, I'll get a measurement of my current stem depth tonight. It does seem long. The height is at max already, so I can't raise it without going for a whole new stem. My BF offered to attempt a good photo this Saturday, when we are both home during daylight (stupid Seattle).

The bike is a 53cm, and I'm 5'5.5" with a 31" inseam, measured using Rivendell's book-in-crotch-till-it-hurts thing. I have long legs, and somewhat short arms. So to get the seat up enough to feel good, I'm maxing out the stock stem. The bike is on the average size for me, I think: not too small, not too big. I could ride a 54, but I couldn't ride a 52.

So what I'm hearing is this (stopping when I get comfy):

1. rotate my hands to the sides of the bars, off the tops of the hoods, so that my hands are not making contact where the redness is in the picture
2. check the seat and make sure everything is comfy that way, and that forward or back a bit doesn't help (but it feels really good right now).
3. get a taller stem, and probably shorten the reach, as well.
4. look at new bars, something like the noodle.
5. worry about bar tape.

Do I have that in the right order?

Pars 

I think that stem reach was the measurement being discussed, although possibly raising the stem to be closer or at the height of the saddle may be required before all is said and done as well. From the pic, I would guess that that stem is in the 120mm range, which is pretty long. Appears to be about an inch beneath the saddle, so not really that low, at least for young-uns We older folk may need it a bit higher though.

snarkypup

^I'm in the old folks category, I think. At least my neck is.

3speed

Wow. Lots of long feedback here, and I'm lazy so I didn't read it all. I'm also a Total newbie compared to all of these people, but here's what I've found with my bike.

I'm ~5'6" and have found 54cm bikes to be a comfy size for me. However, I don't feel comfortable on longer rides with a longer stem. For some reason I feel better on a 60cm stem, even if it's a bit lower, than a 90cm stem even at it's highest.

Also, I don't even use gloves. Just standard "cork" padded bar tape. I find it more comfortable than the thin hard tape with or without gloves. Maybe try that just to see how you like it. To me, what's the point of wearing the padding stuck to my hands all the time, keeping them from getting as much air flow (even if it were just a little). Also, the padded tape means there's padding everywhere, all the time, as opposed to just on the padded spots of gloves. Never gonna have my hands slipping around in the gloves or off of the brakes either.

shorthanded

grab you a nitto technomic and you will be in bizness... if you're having neck issues-- pop that thing up to around saddle height. i'm definitely in agreement that those drops are seriously deep-- like giro d'italia deep- which falls under the purview of 'young guy european sprinter guy pro'. you might try some nitto noodles if you like riding upright too, and you'll have an ENTIRELY different set of hand positions that're appropriate for your neck and back. i USED to ride with 2" of drop.. but uh.. yeah.. not no more. i have little to no doubt you could rock cotton tape should you get your riding position under control for sure!

treebound 

Just a couple of thoughts:

Thought 1. Try rotating the bars up a little and see how that feels if you're riding on the tops. Rotate about 15degrees or so. Also I tend to ride on the tops with my hands on the brake hoods.

Thought 2. Check into the geometry of the Terry Designs bikes which were focused on a woman's proportions (longer legs and shorter torso. This is why I consider top tube length a more critical dimension than seat tube length. The handlebar hiding the front axle is a decent and quick and easy rule of thumb to check.

There is a whole regimine (sp?) of bike fitting, hip angle around 90degrees, arm to torso angle around the same, knee bone knob over forward pedal spindle with cranks horizontal, crank length relative to thigh bone length, handlebar width relative to shoulder width, and none of this directly factors in the seat tube length. I'm no expert, that's just what I've gathered over the years and what works for me. Apply the proverbial YMMV here (your mileage may vary).

Otherwise a nice looking bike.

snarkypup

Wow, you guys are awesome. I think I have it down. I'm going to go to the Pull Apart this weekend and see if they have any inexpensive, taller stems. I also have the shorter reach Nitto stem that a BF member sent me ages ago to go on my Shogun (I will measure both in the next few days: how does one measure the reach of the stem? Middle of bolt to middle of where the bars go in, correct?). I could test them both, and see how they work out, then get another one if the standard, shorter reach works best, and put that on the Shogun (which is still being built up). I will also take some photos on Saturday to get a sense of the fit now for you guys. My lbs guy has a nice, slightly padded white tape in mind, he says, which he says will be a good fit for the era of the bike. I'm sure he'll help me try out the different stems when we get ready to rewrap the bars. The lbs is two blocks from a paved trail, so that's easy to work with.

I'll keep an eye out for cheap Nitto Noodles, too. I see them pop up on CL frequently. I may never ride in the drops though. I'm a pretty upright rider, normally. I think the biggest sign that I should come up and back is that to relieve the pressure on my hands and neck, I usually bring my hands to the back of the bars right by the stem, and roll up onto the ends of my fingers so that I'm up, and back .

I have already rolled the bars waaaay up. Here's a photo of the bike as it was when I brought it home:


panasonic5 by snarkypup, on Flickr