rat fink

Please elaborate. Was it the handling that made it feel too trackish? Not desirable from a riders POV, or collectible (because they are the road and not track version)? I'm curious.

Chicago Al 

(ahem)


Really need to do some better pictures.

Centurion does seem to have changed their top offerings a lot (Professional, Turbo, Equipe, Prestige 1985, Ironman Master, Prestige 1989) maybe trying to find the 'sweet spot' of a premium bike they could sell enough of to make it profitable. Of course they presumably had the problem of writing the specs then sourcing everything including the frame, while for Miyata et al it was in-house.

I wasn't paying attention to cycling at the time, but wasn't a 'premium' Japanese bike still regarded as something of an oxymoron well into the 80s? Not saying it was true, just the perception. I took a Miyata on a C&V ride here last year and one of the participants told me that back in the day they were considered nice but 'blue collar.'

OzarkKing

Quick sidenote (other than noting that there are some sweet bikes on this thread): What is the little spikey nipple thing in this picture? I just picked up a Cilo frame this morning that also has one...

norskagent

Frame pump peg

KonAaron Snake 

Please understand I'm going predominantly from things I've heard from other riders. Their argument was that the 3Rensho road bikes had a geometry and feel that was too track bike'ish. They found them twitchy and uncomfortable on longer rides. I rode one for about 2 miles and it didn't do much for me, certainly not enough to justify the $1700 asking price. It didn't have the responsive magic I feel when the right bike is in my hands (like the Sachs or Merlin). It felt a little spongey to me. I also wasn't wild about the aesthetics and found it plain looking.

I'm not an expert on 3Renshos or their collectibility, but my impression is that they're well worth the investment from that perspective. They seem to have a strong following and a lot of value potential.

KonAaron Snake 

They had that reputation because they were comparatively inexpensive and didn't have the hand built cache.

Picchio Special

I can understand the ride quality not being everyone's cup of tea. I do, however, find the overall design and aesthetics quite appealing - things like the offset fork crown and dropout junctions are pretty sweet and distinctive. My brother had a 3rensho road bike he built up with all Suntour Superbe Pro, and I saw it up close on many occasions.

wrk101

Probably so. When I was looking to upgrade from my Schwinn Continental in the mid 1970s, my dream bike was a Nishiki (don't remember the exact model). I guess you would put me in that blue collar market. For a few dollars more than a Continental, you could get a much lighter bike, with alloy rims, alloy cotterless crankset, cromoly frame, etc. So my initial interest in Japanese bikes was based on value. You could get a lot of bike for the money, compared to what European and US bikes were selling for.

The values were really compelling.


Later I began to appreciate the workmanship of many Japanese bikes, like my handbuilt Lotus Classique (1983).

balindamood 

I am going to have to agree with you. I have a 3Rensho SRA, and it is a monster. It is the fastest thing I have, but will cut like a knife in any direction by just thinking about it. For criteriums, nothing is better. But if I am going on a long slog through the country side, I have a Colnago Super, Alan SR, PX-10, or Panasonic Proffesional which are much better for the purpose. I put my recently aquired Geoffrry Butler, Kabuki DFD, Allez, and Mercian Superlight in the same catagory as the 3Rensho, but no where near as quick. It is kinda like having a Ferarri F40 in the garage. Fun on weekends, but you wouldn't want to drive it to work every day.

Gratuitous picture:

BlankCrows

I think T-Mar has mentioned before that there was no clear documentation that the Zebra name which showed up later was in fact the same company as Zebrakenko. This bike seems to be a great bridge linking the Zebrakenko and Zebra brand names, having both names on it.

martl

not sure if Zunow had anything else than a "top line", but in my opinion, the "Z1" definitely is a top frame.

T-Mar

Actually, I always had that bridge. The circa 1975 Zebrakenko ads mention Zebra Bicycle. This and the similarity in name always made it a good probability that they were simply renamed but there was nothing concete. More digging showed the most modern reference for the Zebrakenko brand being 1984 and the earliest Zebra brand reference being 1985. While the timeframe seemed to be too much of a coincidence and greatly improved my confidence, I was really hoping for some objective tie, like the both brands having the same distributor for 1984 and 1985. Unfortunately, the distributor names and locations are different. The only tie was that they were both in New York City but given that NYC is a big business center and is home for lots of other bicycle importers and distributors, that didn't prove anything. The bottom line is that I'm not 100% certain that it was a simple name change but almost everything points in that direction.

Speaking of confidence levels, the Olympic Ace pics show a Crane rear derailleur as opposed to Dura-Ace. That increases the odds of it being pre-1977 while the style of oil clip on the hubs decreases the probability of it being from 1973. So now, the most likely era is 1974-1976.

I also dug back through my archives and found out that Zebrakenko had sponsored the Japanese Olympic cycling team prior to the mid-1970s, so the model name likely stems from that sponsorship and the Dura-Ace components.

rat fink

Thanks for your input. I wonder if that is the same thing that my Colnago Super is afflicted/blessed with. While I haven't yet been able to check it, I have been told that my Super should have between a 74 and 76 degree HTA. It certainly has very precise front end geometry... but that is something I like about it! So, I figure that is why it's so much more sensitive to steering input than my other two bikes.

I wonder if this trait of being 'too track bike-like', that I tend to seek in a frame, is the common denominator between the bikes that C&V folk don't tend to be a fan of.

It's interesting that you mention your Colnago Super as part of the more docile group. IIRC, yours is a ~early 80s frame. Perhaps, by then, they had toned down the crit/track geometry and made it more road geo.

I've noticed that people on C&V tend to regard De Rosa highly, especially, for their magical ride qualities. I wonder if De Rosa was one of those companies that never made their frames with the more aggressive experimental geometries that were popular among high end builders in the late seventies. Food for thought, anyway.

mickey85

You know, in looking at these, they're absolutely gorgeous. I'm more of an English bike nut (whose stable has only three and a half English bikes for a dozen or so Japanese/Taiwanese bikes), and these are all on my list now!

Collin2424

Man I love the Univega Super Speciale and the Competizione. I have a Super Strada that could be top of the line, depending on whether you prefer Campy Record or Dura Ace 7200.

Did anyone mention the Centurion Turbo? Full Suntour Superbe.

This is an awesome thread, because I'm always looking for top of the line Japanese bikes Just bought a 1986 Schwinn Peloton which was made by Panasonic. Technically, wasn't it Schwinn's top of the line Japanese bike that year?



Pro-Miyata is hiding in the background. But that's one down from top of the line so it's garbage.

-Collin-

KonAaron Snake 

I agree...garbage! Please send it to me and I'll dispose of it for you

Collin2424

Sure, says the Team-Miyata owner!!! Mine is like the Oprah Winfrey to your Halle Berry!!!

shrinkboy

when racing in the mid 80s, the standard setup around these parts (north texas) was one of the italian classics, colnago/masi/guerciotti/gios/grandis (mine), etc with campy nuovo record/super record on high flange hubs (criterium setup) with mavic or fiamme sewups-- you'd see a guy show up with a japanese bike and ask yourself why he didn't stretch the extra few hundo's for the italian gear. it was definitely, though not accurately, seen as second tier.

shrinkboy

and i'd love to find a 60/61cm Schwinn Peloton

KonAaron Snake 

I'm fairly sure it's pretty much the same bike with different paint and components. For a solid 10 years my favorite bike was a Miyata 916...which is one down from the Miyata Pro, and it's a bigger step than the Team to the Pro. Miyatas are just wonderfully stiff, comfortable bikes. I also think the Pros look better.

Collin2424

Oops, I missed the Centurion Turbo right above. Beautiful bike. Not my first choice for riding in the snow, but beautiful bike

-Collin-

Catnap

I'm a huge fan of collectible handmade Japanese steel. Here's my top ten list:

Zunow
Nakagawa
Ravanello
Cherubim
Katakura Silk
Araya
Toei
San Rensho / 3Rensho
Kalavinka
Nagasawa
Makino

The last four are better known for their track bikes, but all have made gorgeous and extremely aggressive road frames. Toei is a highly respected name in touring bikes. Nakagawa and Ravanello are both one-man shops, and I believe Nakagawa worked for Zunow in the 80's. Zunow and San Rensho are no longer in business. There's a company called Zunow East that still uses the logo and name, but the frames are not that special. Araya, commonly known for their wheels, also made steel frames for a time. Very rare stuff, and the Japanese market values all of these highly, making them even rarer in the states.

ColonelJLloyd 

Anyone mention Kuwahara yet? I know he was most famous for BMX bikes, but my LBS has a really nice lugged road bike that I'd consider buying if it were my size.

ScottRyder 

I had a Kuwahara built Nishiki Cresta at one point. It was very nice, both in construction and ride quality.

Scott

Picchio Special

This is a good list. Do you know if Samson makes/made any road bikes? The Samson frames I've seen are extremely well made.
I also think Alps, Hirose, and Watanabe deserve mention. An Alps pass hunter is one of my "grail" bikes, though it will have to be a used one as the shop has closed.