What are the top end C&V road bikes from each Japanese manufacturer?
#51
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I have no idea how accurate this is over all, but a couple folks I've spoken to think the 3rensho road bikes are not desirable and suffer from a too track bike'ish influence. I did have the chance to buy a 3rensho road bike in my size and passed on it after riding it. I was not impressed. I know the track bike is a whole other story.
#52
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(ahem)

Really need to do some better pictures.
Centurion does seem to have changed their top offerings a lot (Professional, Turbo, Equipe, Prestige 1985, Ironman Master, Prestige 1989) maybe trying to find the 'sweet spot' of a premium bike they could sell enough of to make it profitable. Of course they presumably had the problem of writing the specs then sourcing everything including the frame, while for Miyata et al it was in-house.
I wasn't paying attention to cycling at the time, but wasn't a 'premium' Japanese bike still regarded as something of an oxymoron well into the 80s? Not saying it was true, just the perception. I took a Miyata on a C&V ride here last year and one of the participants told me that back in the day they were considered nice but 'blue collar.'

Really need to do some better pictures.
Centurion does seem to have changed their top offerings a lot (Professional, Turbo, Equipe, Prestige 1985, Ironman Master, Prestige 1989) maybe trying to find the 'sweet spot' of a premium bike they could sell enough of to make it profitable. Of course they presumably had the problem of writing the specs then sourcing everything including the frame, while for Miyata et al it was in-house.
I wasn't paying attention to cycling at the time, but wasn't a 'premium' Japanese bike still regarded as something of an oxymoron well into the 80s? Not saying it was true, just the perception. I took a Miyata on a C&V ride here last year and one of the participants told me that back in the day they were considered nice but 'blue collar.'
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Quick sidenote (other than noting that there are some sweet bikes on this thread): What is the little spikey nipple thing in this picture? I just picked up a Cilo frame this morning that also has one...

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Frame pump peg
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1989 Schwinn Paramount OS
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1976 Fuji Feather track
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"I've consulted my sources and I'm pretty sure your derailleur does not exist"
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I'm not an expert on 3Renshos or their collectibility, but my impression is that they're well worth the investment from that perspective. They seem to have a strong following and a lot of value potential.
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(ahem)

Really need to do some better pictures.
Centurion does seem to have changed their top offerings a lot (Professional, Turbo, Equipe, Prestige 1985, Ironman Master, Prestige 1989) maybe trying to find the 'sweet spot' of a premium bike they could sell enough of to make it profitable. Of course they presumably had the problem of writing the specs then sourcing everything including the frame, while for Miyata et al it was in-house.
I wasn't paying attention to cycling at the time, but wasn't a 'premium' Japanese bike still regarded as something of an oxymoron well into the 80s? Not saying it was true, just the perception. I took a Miyata on a C&V ride here last year and one of the participants told me that back in the day they were considered nice but 'blue collar.'

Really need to do some better pictures.
Centurion does seem to have changed their top offerings a lot (Professional, Turbo, Equipe, Prestige 1985, Ironman Master, Prestige 1989) maybe trying to find the 'sweet spot' of a premium bike they could sell enough of to make it profitable. Of course they presumably had the problem of writing the specs then sourcing everything including the frame, while for Miyata et al it was in-house.
I wasn't paying attention to cycling at the time, but wasn't a 'premium' Japanese bike still regarded as something of an oxymoron well into the 80s? Not saying it was true, just the perception. I took a Miyata on a C&V ride here last year and one of the participants told me that back in the day they were considered nice but 'blue collar.'
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Please understand I'm going predominantly from things I've heard from other riders. Their argument was that the 3Rensho road bikes had a geometry and feel that was too track bike'ish. They found them twitchy and uncomfortable on longer rides. I rode one for about 2 miles and it didn't do much for me, certainly not enough to justify the $1700 asking price. It didn't have the responsive magic I feel when the right bike is in my hands (like the Sachs or Merlin). It felt a little spongey to me. I also wasn't wild about the aesthetics and found it plain looking.
I'm not an expert on 3Renshos or their collectibility, but my impression is that they're well worth the investment from that perspective. They seem to have a strong following and a lot of value potential.
I'm not an expert on 3Renshos or their collectibility, but my impression is that they're well worth the investment from that perspective. They seem to have a strong following and a lot of value potential.
#58
Thrifty Bill
(ahem)
I wasn't paying attention to cycling at the time, but wasn't a 'premium' Japanese bike still regarded as something of an oxymoron well into the 80s? Not saying it was true, just the perception. I took a Miyata on a C&V ride here last year and one of the participants told me that back in the day they were considered nice but 'blue collar.'
I wasn't paying attention to cycling at the time, but wasn't a 'premium' Japanese bike still regarded as something of an oxymoron well into the 80s? Not saying it was true, just the perception. I took a Miyata on a C&V ride here last year and one of the participants told me that back in the day they were considered nice but 'blue collar.'
The values were really compelling.
Later I began to appreciate the workmanship of many Japanese bikes, like my handbuilt Lotus Classique (1983).
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Please understand I'm going predominantly from things I've heard from other riders. Their argument was that the 3Rensho road bikes had a geometry and feel that was too track bike'ish. They found them twitchy and uncomfortable on longer rides. I rode one for about 2 miles and it didn't do much for me, certainly not enough to justify the $1700 asking price. It didn't have the responsive magic I feel when the right bike is in my hands (like the Sachs or Merlin). It felt a little spongey to me. I also wasn't wild about the aesthetics and found it plain looking.
Gratuitous picture:

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Exactly! That is what I read on the frame: Zebrakenko (and Zebra Bicycle) Golden Sports Olympic Ace 
https://www.flickr.com/photos/39479610@N08/
I doubt whether the Zebrakenko brand was ever seriously representated on the European market. I wouldn't be surprised if mine was for testing water purposes or so.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/39479610@N08/
I doubt whether the Zebrakenko brand was ever seriously representated on the European market. I wouldn't be surprised if mine was for testing water purposes or so.
#61
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Speaking of confidence levels, the Olympic Ace pics show a Crane rear derailleur as opposed to Dura-Ace. That increases the odds of it being pre-1977 while the style of oil clip on the hubs decreases the probability of it being from 1973. So now, the most likely era is 1974-1976.
I also dug back through my archives and found out that Zebrakenko had sponsored the Japanese Olympic cycling team prior to the mid-1970s, so the model name likely stems from that sponsorship and the Dura-Ace components.
Last edited by T-Mar; 12-21-10 at 12:16 PM.
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Please understand I'm going predominantly from things I've heard from other riders. Their argument was that the 3Rensho road bikes had a geometry and feel that was too track bike'ish. They found them twitchy and uncomfortable on longer rides. I rode one for about 2 miles and it didn't do much for me, certainly not enough to justify the $1700 asking price. It didn't have the responsive magic I feel when the right bike is in my hands (like the Sachs or Merlin). It felt a little spongey to me. I also wasn't wild about the aesthetics and found it plain looking.
I'm not an expert on 3Renshos or their collectibility, but my impression is that they're well worth the investment from that perspective. They seem to have a strong following and a lot of value potential.
I'm not an expert on 3Renshos or their collectibility, but my impression is that they're well worth the investment from that perspective. They seem to have a strong following and a lot of value potential.
I wonder if this trait of being 'too track bike-like', that I tend to seek in a frame, is the common denominator between the bikes that C&V folk don't tend to be a fan of.
I am going to have to agree with you. I have a 3Rensho SRA, and it is a monster. It is the fastest thing I have, but will cut like a knife in any direction by just thinking about it. For criteriums, nothing is better. But if I am going on a long slog through the country side, I have a Colnago Super, Alan SR, PX-10, or Panasonic Proffesional which are much better for the purpose. I put my recently aquired Geoffrry Butler, Kabuki DFD, Allez, and Mercian Superlight in the same catagory as the 3Rensho, but no where near as quick. It is kinda like having a Ferarri F40 in the garage. Fun on weekends, but you wouldn't want to drive it to work every day.
I've noticed that people on C&V tend to regard De Rosa highly, especially, for their magical ride qualities. I wonder if De Rosa was one of those companies that never made their frames with the more aggressive experimental geometries that were popular among high end builders in the late seventies. Food for thought, anyway.
#64
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You know, in looking at these, they're absolutely gorgeous. I'm more of an English bike nut (whose stable has only three and a half English bikes for a dozen or so Japanese/Taiwanese bikes), and these are all on my list now!
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Man I love the Univega Super Speciale and the Competizione. I have a Super Strada that could be top of the line, depending on whether you prefer Campy Record or Dura Ace 7200. 
Did anyone mention the Centurion Turbo? Full Suntour Superbe.
This is an awesome thread, because I'm always looking for top of the line Japanese bikes
Just bought a 1986 Schwinn Peloton which was made by Panasonic. Technically, wasn't it Schwinn's top of the line Japanese bike that year?

Pro-Miyata is hiding in the background. But that's one down from top of the line so it's garbage.
-Collin-

Did anyone mention the Centurion Turbo? Full Suntour Superbe.
This is an awesome thread, because I'm always looking for top of the line Japanese bikes


Pro-Miyata is hiding in the background. But that's one down from top of the line so it's garbage.
-Collin-
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Man I love the Univega Super Speciale and the Competizione. I have a Super Strada that could be top of the line, depending on whether you prefer Campy Record or Dura Ace 7200. 
Did anyone mention the Centurion Turbo? Full Suntour Superbe.
This is an awesome thread, because I'm always looking for top of the line Japanese bikes
Just bought a 1986 Schwinn Peloton which was made by Panasonic. Technically, wasn't it Schwinn's top of the line Japanese bike that year?

Pro-Miyata is hiding in the background. But that's one down from top of the line so it's garbage.
-Collin-

Did anyone mention the Centurion Turbo? Full Suntour Superbe.
This is an awesome thread, because I'm always looking for top of the line Japanese bikes


Pro-Miyata is hiding in the background. But that's one down from top of the line so it's garbage.
-Collin-

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when racing in the mid 80s, the standard setup around these parts (north texas) was one of the italian classics, colnago/masi/guerciotti/gios/grandis (mine), etc with campy nuovo record/super record on high flange hubs (criterium setup) with mavic or fiamme sewups-- you'd see a guy show up with a japanese bike and ask yourself why he didn't stretch the extra few hundo's for the italian gear. it was definitely, though not accurately, seen as second tier.
(ahem)

Really need to do some better pictures.
Centurion does seem to have changed their top offerings a lot (Professional, Turbo, Equipe, Prestige 1985, Ironman Master, Prestige 1989) maybe trying to find the 'sweet spot' of a premium bike they could sell enough of to make it profitable. Of course they presumably had the problem of writing the specs then sourcing everything including the frame, while for Miyata et al it was in-house.
I wasn't paying attention to cycling at the time, but wasn't a 'premium' Japanese bike still regarded as something of an oxymoron well into the 80s? Not saying it was true, just the perception. I took a Miyata on a C&V ride here last year and one of the participants told me that back in the day they were considered nice but 'blue collar.'

Really need to do some better pictures.
Centurion does seem to have changed their top offerings a lot (Professional, Turbo, Equipe, Prestige 1985, Ironman Master, Prestige 1989) maybe trying to find the 'sweet spot' of a premium bike they could sell enough of to make it profitable. Of course they presumably had the problem of writing the specs then sourcing everything including the frame, while for Miyata et al it was in-house.
I wasn't paying attention to cycling at the time, but wasn't a 'premium' Japanese bike still regarded as something of an oxymoron well into the 80s? Not saying it was true, just the perception. I took a Miyata on a C&V ride here last year and one of the participants told me that back in the day they were considered nice but 'blue collar.'
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I'm fairly sure it's pretty much the same bike with different paint and components. For a solid 10 years my favorite bike was a Miyata 916...which is one down from the Miyata Pro, and it's a bigger step than the Team to the Pro. Miyatas are just wonderfully stiff, comfortable bikes. I also think the Pros look better.
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Oops, I missed the Centurion Turbo right above. Beautiful bike. Not my first choice for riding in the snow, but beautiful bike 
-Collin-

-Collin-
#72
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I'm a huge fan of collectible handmade Japanese steel. Here's my top ten list:
Zunow
Nakagawa
Ravanello
Cherubim
Katakura Silk
Araya
Toei
San Rensho / 3Rensho
Kalavinka
Nagasawa
Makino
The last four are better known for their track bikes, but all have made gorgeous and extremely aggressive road frames. Toei is a highly respected name in touring bikes. Nakagawa and Ravanello are both one-man shops, and I believe Nakagawa worked for Zunow in the 80's. Zunow and San Rensho are no longer in business. There's a company called Zunow East that still uses the logo and name, but the frames are not that special. Araya, commonly known for their wheels, also made steel frames for a time. Very rare stuff, and the Japanese market values all of these highly, making them even rarer in the states.
Zunow
Nakagawa
Ravanello
Cherubim
Katakura Silk
Araya
Toei
San Rensho / 3Rensho
Kalavinka
Nagasawa
Makino
The last four are better known for their track bikes, but all have made gorgeous and extremely aggressive road frames. Toei is a highly respected name in touring bikes. Nakagawa and Ravanello are both one-man shops, and I believe Nakagawa worked for Zunow in the 80's. Zunow and San Rensho are no longer in business. There's a company called Zunow East that still uses the logo and name, but the frames are not that special. Araya, commonly known for their wheels, also made steel frames for a time. Very rare stuff, and the Japanese market values all of these highly, making them even rarer in the states.
#73
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Anyone mention Kuwahara yet? I know he was most famous for BMX bikes, but my LBS has a really nice lugged road bike that I'd consider buying if it were my size.
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#75
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I'm a huge fan of collectible handmade Japanese steel. Here's my top ten list:
Zunow
Nakagawa
Ravanello
Cherubim
Katakura Silk
Araya
Toei
San Rensho / 3Rensho
Kalavinka
Nagasawa
Makino
The last four are better known for their track bikes, but all have made gorgeous and extremely aggressive road frames. Toei is a highly respected name in touring bikes. Nakagawa and Ravanello are both one-man shops, and I believe Nakagawa worked for Zunow in the 80's. Zunow and San Rensho are no longer in business. There's a company called Zunow East that still uses the logo and name, but the frames are not that special. Araya, commonly known for their wheels, also made steel frames for a time. Very rare stuff, and the Japanese market values all of these highly, making them even rarer in the states.
Zunow
Nakagawa
Ravanello
Cherubim
Katakura Silk
Araya
Toei
San Rensho / 3Rensho
Kalavinka
Nagasawa
Makino
The last four are better known for their track bikes, but all have made gorgeous and extremely aggressive road frames. Toei is a highly respected name in touring bikes. Nakagawa and Ravanello are both one-man shops, and I believe Nakagawa worked for Zunow in the 80's. Zunow and San Rensho are no longer in business. There's a company called Zunow East that still uses the logo and name, but the frames are not that special. Araya, commonly known for their wheels, also made steel frames for a time. Very rare stuff, and the Japanese market values all of these highly, making them even rarer in the states.
I also think Alps, Hirose, and Watanabe deserve mention. An Alps pass hunter is one of my "grail" bikes, though it will have to be a used one as the shop has closed.