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Modern components on an old frame - more trouble than it is worth?

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Modern components on an old frame - more trouble than it is worth?

Old 01-01-11, 11:56 PM
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Modern components on an old frame - more trouble than it is worth?

I have been doing quite a bit of digging around this site and Google in general, but I'm still not finding real specific information, so I don't *think* I'm starting a completely beaten-to-death thread. If I am, I apologize, and please just point me in the right direction.

I started biking back into biking a couple of years ago after many, many years away. Mostly on a late 90's Schwinn Moab 1 mtb. Then I picked up a used road bike and gave that a whirl, and started increasing the lengths of my rides, but found myself always back on the old mtb because the road bike just beat me up too much. Last fall I got a new job that would allow me to commute by bike and also came with a little signing bonus, so after a lot of looking and shopping, I talked myself into a new Motobecane cross bike that I intended to use for commuting and to finally knock down a century ride. Specifically, this bike: https://www.bikesdirect.com/products/..._pro_rival.htm

Everything has been just great with this bike. I put about 300 miles on it before I wussed out due to the cold weather. Seriously, I have no significant complaints about this bike. But I'm just sort of in the mood for a bike build, and, if anything, the frame of this bike seems a little smaller than I expected. I have the bars raised on an extension to get them where I want them, which is basically level with the seat. I'm 5'9" with an inseam slightly over 30". Everything I read says I should be on about a 52 cm frame, but I went ahead and ordered a 54 on this bike and yet it still seems just a tad small. Plus, I would just love a nice, older, slightly relaxed lugged steel frame equipped with all the cool newer components from this bike.

Now, if I just go out now and buy a brand new new touring frame for this bike, my wife will shoot me. Plus, part of what I'm looking forward to is the process of stripping down an older frame, cleaning it all up and repainting in whatever colors I choose, and just basically putting some old steel back on the road. A hot rod, if you will.

But, how much trouble will I run into swapping all the great modern gear from the Moto onto an older frame? I would love to keep the 1 1/8" carbon forks and headset and the nice external cartridge bearing bottom bracket and just, well, everything. Right now I think I'd like to lose the front derailleur, replace the outer chain ring a nice chain guard and run the bike as a 1x10, add fenders, new seat, possibly a Brooks, possibly with a small suspension seat post for the times when I inadvertently whack the Chicago pot holes. I have found the brackets I would need to run the cantilever brakes on an older frame that does not have bosses. Seems like most older frames will accommodate the 32c tires the bike has or possibly the 35c that I'd like mount. Really the only thing I'm unsure of is the headset and forks, the bottom bracket, possibly getting the 10speed cluster into the frame, and maybe cable routing, although I don't see that the SRAM stuff needs anything special.

I've been watching for that magic deal on a tired old frame that is in good shape, save for it's paint, and I've got my eye on a couple here and there. But I don't want to invest in a frame and then have the project turn into a money pit.

So, what say you? Can it be done?

Thanks,

-T.
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Old 01-02-11, 12:12 AM
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sell your old bike and start over with a larger one.
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Old 01-02-11, 12:21 AM
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In general, not more trouble than it is worth.

What you're wanting to do? Yes, more trouble.
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Old 01-02-11, 12:30 AM
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Originally Posted by illwafer
sell your old bike and start over with a larger one.

+1 I'm with him. If your going to be limited to one bike then buy a bike that fits and buy it from a place that will help you get it adjusted to your body. Although I like old bikes as much as the next guy, unless you planning to do all you own wrenching, to swap components will be costly. I would still stay with a cross type bike though. Surly Cross Checks have got a big following here.
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Old 01-02-11, 12:51 AM
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Originally Posted by illwafer
sell your old bike and start over with a larger one.
+1
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Old 01-02-11, 01:40 AM
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I have not done what you are suggesting. And I say each to his own, although I like to see C&V stay within certain limits of change for the sake of preserving a cycling era. For example, I am not alone in abhorring dudes who either saw or — worse — pull off braze-ons from a classic road bike that ends up having team racing colors blown over with flat black from a rattle can.

Not that I am suggesting that is what you may be doing; no ... my point is rather that you will end up with a Franken-bike. It won't be one thing, and it won't be another. For one thing, running your carbon forks on a classic steel frame may be defeating the objective. A lot of the way a steel frame feels and behaves has to do with the tube set that includes the forks. Out of my four bikes, only one (my Vitus 979) uses the same metallurgy throughout, but at least the other three were made from not too dissimilar materials.

I believe there are steel bikes that were/are designed for a specific carbon fork set, but that is a another kettle of fish. For example, I trust that the Tange mangalloy forks and T-1 stays on my Trek 560 were intentionally engineered to be comensurate and complementary with the Reynolds 501 frame triangle and lugs.

And what about steering geometry? I think that you would have to know more than I do (which may not be difficult) to forecast what sort of handing you are going to get. I for one would not have a clue. Then there are things like tube diameters, stay-spread, brake and wheel adaption and so on.

Given a lathe, some very expensive tools that are used on frames, or access to a frame builder, nothing is impossible, but you may end up with more than just a Franken-bike; you may end up with a nightmare. Or, admittedly, you may end up with something sweet and wonderful — something not to everyones' taste but .... Back in the Cretaceous when I raced motorcycles, a touring South African racer showed up at the racing circuit with a Norton chassis that carried an aluminum Honda car engine. It handled decently and blew off all but the fastest factory and works racing machines on the mountain race track. Point is: it was a strange and unorthodox machine, but it worked brilliantly for the guy who rode it. (Made a hell of a sweet noise too!)

I'd say that if you know what you are doing and have some hardened and honed determination, go head. Otherwise I'd get a complete classic and restore it, or find a modern day steel bike — and there are some nice ones around now. Or alternatively find a C&V frame and enjoy the fun of collecting pieces for it. Here in Japan anyway, I am surprised at how full the catalogues are of retro type parts. The Dia-Compe, Sugino and Nitto firms alone supply a lot of what you would need to build up on a vintage steel frame. And although the parts would not be contemporaneous with the frame, they would at least be en-suite and in character. And they would be fresh and in some cases perhaps benefiting from more modern metallurgy.

If your modern machine is too small for you, there must be ways to adapt it. If it were a vintage machine, I could be of more help there. I would have thought that adjusting a modern machine would in fact be easier.

Last edited by Lenton58; 01-02-11 at 08:01 AM.
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Old 01-02-11, 02:06 AM
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The fork won't transfer to a frame that will probably come with a 1" fork.

You could keep the cockpit with a quill stem adapter.

The drive train shouldn't be a problem, assuming the frame has an ISO thread bottom bracket. I can't imagine cantilever studs have changed, although there might be adjustment issues if the frame you select was built around 27" wheels.

And I'm assuming the Aksium Race wheels are 130mm spaced, not 135mm? They might pop right in with a bit of effort on a 126mm (6/7 speed) frame, or you can coldset the frame for 130mm.

You wouldn't be the first person to buy a bikes direct bike for the components.
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Old 01-02-11, 07:10 AM
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tugrul:
You wouldn't be the first person to buy a bikes direct bike for the components.
Sure enough, and why not. A sharp pencil and calculator may illuminate any specific case in 10-15 minutes.

tugrul:
And I'm assuming the Aksium Race wheels are 130mm spaced, not 135mm? They might pop right in with a bit of effort on a 126mm (6/7 speed) frame, or you can coldset the frame for 130mm.
Yep — if they can pop in on a 4 mm cold set, go for it. But 9 mm? Well I wouldn't I've watched a frame-builder realign drop-outs for a 4 mm coldset — that is from 120-126. And it sure didn't look trivial to me. You watch the alighnment bells and say to yourself — 'Wow! How did a measly 4 mils do that?'

And my mechanic friend will not do a 10 mm cold-set. However, if you elect to go single speed you can cut the axle on both ends. (This was how we got a new Shimano RD500 rear wheel on my cold-set vintage Simplon ... 120 >126 mm.)

tugrul mentions a quill stem adapter. Cool. You will wanna be really careful about just what size s going to serve you best. Get over to your LBS where they hopefully have an adustable, mock frame to size you up. I cannot overemphasize this. If the people there know what they are doing, they mock up the optimum geometry in accordance with where your knees are in the pedal stroke, the posture of your back, and where your arms should be in the three basic positions using a set of bends. And if you are an old fart like me or a commuter, you may want to sit higher in the cockpit than some criterium racer.

So don't just get talked into selecting from just two or three quill stem options. Wait unto you find exactly the size you need. Sometimes a restrictive factor is the length of the head tube, but you can always cut one that is too long. I'm a guy who is often best fitted with more height and a shorter reach — if the frame fits my legs and standover. BTW: I'm near your size for height and inseam, and my best fit is a 56 seat tube and a 54 top tube. This is not all that usual a sort of frame, but I got lucky.

This being said, the biggy it seems to me is finding a suitable steel road frame with the cantilever brakes mounts that you have — assuming you wanna keep them, although you could fit a set of Tectros ... and Dia-Compe has some very nice brakes these days. No, they will not win you fashion points but who cares? Our local keirin pro's use them on their practice road bikes. Or you good go crazy and do Campy or Dura Ace sidepulls .

I don't want to be the one to put you off, but expect some challgenges. I doubt it would be a slam dunk affair.

Last edited by Lenton58; 01-02-11 at 07:58 AM.
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Old 01-02-11, 07:27 AM
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I'd say if the vintage frame is made of high quality tubing and has it's original fork, use that.

Would you say you are short-legged? I'm 5'6", not long-legged, and my cycling inseam (not my jeans inseam) is 32 inches or 81.5 cm. I best suit a 54 or 55 cm frame. Your 52 might really be too small. Cycling inseam, the number you should be using for fitting and adjustment, is not the same as the inseam measurement of your trousers.

The 1 1/8 fork will probably not fit a vintage frame, same for the external-bearing BB. Vintage steel frames can be cold-set from 126 to 130 by shops that know what they're doing, but 120 to 130 might be a stretch. There's more to cold-setting than just grabbing and muscling, but I've had it done to two very high quality frames with good results and zero downside. Aluminum, Ti, and carbon rear ends can't be cold set.

Most modern frames have very tight wheel/frame and wheel/fork clearances. This makes the brake caliper designs very short and compact. Such short-reach brake calipers probably will not work on a vintage frames.
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Old 01-02-11, 07:43 AM
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i just think there's too many problems unless you're willing to make it a LONG or EXPENSIVE build process. i'm loathe to the idea that a carbon fork should go on a steel frame. i'm loathe to think of a classic frame with a threadless adapter. i'm loathe to think of making frames suited for narrower stances have wider q's to fit modern cranksets. then there's the wheel size issue. i can't imagine a spring post on a classic frame.

what i'm getting at-- is the entire mentality has shifted SO much since classic lugged steel frames that it's square peg in round hole, to my mind. you ride classic small diameter steel frames for what they offer- real road feel- and many of the things you're suggesting doing to the frame would utterly demolish that. not to mention different standards that are incompatible- such as the 1 1/8" fork.

i dunno-- i TOTALLY know what you're trying to do- and it's a tricky dance to find a bike that suits you-- but i wouldn't go about it in the way you're thinking. its possible.. but i think you may not be happy with the results-- or might be briefly, and would eventually find that it's kinda a bit of a bastard in the end.
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Old 01-02-11, 07:57 AM
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That Moto Cyclocross bike is really nice, probably a re-branded Fuji, that is a dream bike for more than a few riders. SRAM Rival is very decent, SRAM RED is very serious. Hope you use a strong lock and chain, or always keep in indoors when not riding. Wouldn't go "chopping" it up too quickly. Would buy an inexpensive (i.e. "dirt cheap") old CX or touring bike in a second. However, you could probably buy a touring bike frame, and transfer the parts. You could probably resell the old frame if it is in good condition. Quite a few guys these days want to build up a nice cyclocross bike. About $150 + S&H gets you this right now (db aluminum frame with chromo forks):

+11% off today 1/2/11 ... have been looking at it myself ....

https://www.nashbar.com/bikes/Product...3_10000_200450
https://www.nashbar.com/bikes/Product...3_10000_200456



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Old 01-02-11, 08:18 AM
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I need more coffe or something that post seemed a bit rambling. I have a question about size. your 5'9" with a 30" inseam? have you actually gone a to shop to get fitted and try some different bikes? I agree a 52 is too small and even a 54 may be smallish.

you already bought the Motobecane? did you build it? perhaps you can make a quick exchange for a 56.

I would not suggest trying to put this bikes 'kit' onto your older frame. once you get the Moto up and running then look for a nice older steel bike that fits better.

as a side note, some here pooh pooh the Bikes Direct bikes. I bought the Fantom Uno a few years ago and I really like it. the quality was great for the price. however if you do not have experience working on bikes it is well worth it to have a pro assembly done.
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Old 01-02-11, 08:39 AM
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Originally Posted by Bianchigirll
as a side note, some here pooh pooh the Bikes Direct bikes. I bought the Fantom Uno a few years ago and I really like it. the quality was great for the price. however if you do not have experience working on bikes it is well worth it to have a pro assembly done.
I've seen quite a few when I have been out on rides. Since you can't look them over on a local shop floor, I often catch up and talk with the owners of B.D. models I have an interest in. I have never heard any complains. The owners I have spoken with like their bikes. As far as pro assembly goes, just one small problem can throw a novice off, and possibly lead to a seriously damaged component. You also need a few specialized tools that can be expensive for one time use.
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Old 01-02-11, 08:47 AM
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Originally Posted by Bianchigirll
once you get the Moto up and running then look for a nice older steel bike that fits better.
Something like, or similar to, the '91 Schwinn CrossCut might serve your needs well. You can find bikes like this selling for $100 or less in excellent shape. The thumbnail shots are of my '91 CrossCut, my heavily "upgraded" '93 Trek 700 Multi-Track, and my new 2010 cyclocross bike.


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Old 01-02-11, 09:00 AM
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Originally Posted by Bianchigirll
once you get the Moto up and running then look for a nice older steel bike that fits better.
+1 seems like you might enjoy the Moto and a vintage ride you can work on. If you keep the vintage ride period correct it's cheaper. You can spend a lot or a little and get a great older ride. You might enjoy the differences and enjoy having them both.
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Old 01-02-11, 09:14 AM
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In general, there's not a serious problem with putting newer components on an old bike. I think it's best to keep the original fork, and you have to think about things like cold setting, but overall it's a question of how much time and money you want to put into it, and what you're trying to get out of it.

With this bike, and what you're trying to do, I think buying a more contemporary frame--one that's set up for a 1-1/8" fork, 10 speed, and a threadless headset--will get you more bang for your buck than buying a truly vintage frame. With a kit like the one you have, you're going to want a pretty nice frame, which can be hard to come by for an attractive price. Then, by the time you deal with all the unexpected problems that come up and buy the specialized parts to say fit a threadless stem on a threaded fork, even a cheap vintage frame will end up being more expensive than what you'd spend on a Nashbar frame or even a Surly. And finally, as other's have pointed out, old frames were designed around certain components and a style of ride, which could mean you won't be getting the most out of your SRAM Rival.

So my advice? First, go to an LBS and find out what size you need. Then look for a new or slightly used frame in that size that was designed for the components you have. At the same time, look for a vintage steel machine at a price that won't break the bank. Now you have two bikes that fit you, and you're well on your way to an appropriately sized fleet.

Good luck!
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Old 01-02-11, 09:18 AM
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Originally Posted by FuzzyDunlop
In general, there's not a serious problem with putting newer components on an old bike. I think it's best to keep the original fork, and you have to think about things like cold setting, but overall it's a question of how much time and money you want to put into it, and what you're trying to get out of it.

With this bike, and what you're trying to do, I think buying a more contemporary frame--one that's set up for a 1-1/8" fork, 10 speed, and a threadless headset--will get you more bang for your buck than buying a truly vintage frame. With a kit like the one you have, you're going to want a pretty nice frame, which can be hard to come by for an attractive price. Then, by the time you deal with all the unexpected problems that come up and buy the specialized parts to say fit a threadless stem on a threaded fork, even a cheap vintage frame will end up being more expensive than what you'd spend on a Nashbar frame or even a Surly. And finally, as other's have pointed out, old frames were designed around certain components and a style of ride, which could mean you won't be getting the most out of your SRAM Rival.

So my advice? First, go to an LBS and find out what size you need. Then look for a new or slightly used frame in that size that was designed for the components you have. At the same time, look for a vintage steel machine at a price that won't break the bank. Now you have two bikes that fit you, and you're well on your way to an appropriately sized fleet.

Good luck!
+1 Well said!
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Old 01-02-11, 10:45 AM
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Inexpensive, older steel frame bikes with 700C wheels and cantilever brakes are out there. Lower-end components on the M-T 700, but the frame alone would be worth it. Just an example, since this one is/was in Fairfield, County in Connecticut.

Trek 700 Hybrid Bicycle - $45 (New Canaan, CT)

https://newyork.craigslist.org/fct/bik/2138739388.html
Date: 2011-01-01, 2:31PM EST
Reply to: sale-juxpx-2138739388@craigslist.org [Errors when replying to ads?]



Seldom ridden, kept in garage, 24" frame, blue, 21 speed, good shape, this particular bicycle is perfect daily commutes from the burbs to the big city.
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Old 01-02-11, 10:54 AM
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Milton, NY ... Ulster County, NY ... too #!*&'n far for me to go for a bike! &%#*!

1987 Model Cannondale 400 Series Road Bike - $85 (Milton)

https://hudsonvalley.craigslist.org/bik/2138747761.html
Date: 2011-01-01, 2:37PM EST
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Originally, in 1987, this bicycle would have listed at around $500 from Cannondale.
The good: Genuine Cannondale bicycle. Made in the USA. Beautiful black with red lettering.
The “bad:” This is a very nice machine which, in its day, was largely unrivaled aside from its own Cannondale siblings. However, this is not a bicycle which can be ridden home. It will probably need a chain, tires, and general reconditioning. It has sat unused for quite a while. With some TLC, this will undoubtedly bring many years of riding enjoyment.
Why are we parting ways? I went the direction of an off-road bike.
Make me an offer.

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Old 01-02-11, 11:07 AM
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I am 5'7" and usually ride a 54cm. You really need to examine the specific geometry of each given bike you are interested in. I found via interweb search that when buying a CX bike you should go down a size. I actually rode a 54cm CX bike and felt uncomfortable off-road. So i went for a 52cm and, well, it had it's problems as well. If you look at the geometry of the Motobecane it is 54 seattube, 55 top tube - kinda "scrunched." That is what I did not like about my Soma 52. Standover was great but reach was too short. Now you can fix reach by getting a longer stem, but my bike had toe overlap, which was irritating to say the least. Just compare the geometry on the Moto vs. something else. CX bike are designed a little different. The BB is a little higher as well. How old a frame are you thinking? If you go back to the 2000's, you can find great Reynolds 853 frames, that would probably accept all the parts. Going back further you the headtubes go to 1", your 135 rear spacing goes away. But with effort will accept most of your parts. What size was that road bike you had? How did it ride, feel? What about it "beat you up?" Your Motobecane came with 700 x 32 tires, your road bike had 23? 25? That is a big comfy difference. Just going from 25 to 23 and I noticed a big change in feel. You will definitely ride smoother on the 32's. So if you are looking at a older frame, check the top tube "reach" and what the max tire size is. Look for touring frames, as they will also accept the cantilever brakes.
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Old 01-02-11, 01:10 PM
  #21  
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Originally Posted by cycleheimer
Milton, NY ... Ulster County, NY ... too #!*&'n far for me to go for a bike! &%#*!

1987 Model Cannondale 400 Series Road Bike - $85 (Milton)
Meant this posting for the "are you looking for..." thread.
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Old 01-02-11, 01:18 PM
  #22  
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Originally Posted by Road Fan
The 1 1/8 fork will probably not fit a vintage frame, same for the external-bearing BB.
How so? External cups are threaded to fit standard size BB shells.
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Old 01-02-11, 01:21 PM
  #23  
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Hmmm, maybe I had some other issue else in mind ... Thanks, tho!
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Old 01-02-11, 01:47 PM
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Originally Posted by noisy.ant
I have been doing quite a bit of digging around this site and Google in general, but I'm still not finding real specific information, so I don't *think* I'm starting a completely beaten-to-death thread. If I am, I apologize, and please just point me in the right direction.

I started biking back into biking a couple of years ago after many, many years away. Mostly on a late 90's Schwinn Moab 1 mtb. Then I picked up a used road bike and gave that a whirl, and started increasing the lengths of my rides, but found myself always back on the old mtb because the road bike just beat me up too much. Last fall I got a new job that would allow me to commute by bike and also came with a little signing bonus, so after a lot of looking and shopping, I talked myself into a new Motobecane cross bike that I intended to use for commuting and to finally knock down a century ride. Specifically, this bike: https://www.bikesdirect.com/products/..._pro_rival.htm

Everything has been just great with this bike. I put about 300 miles on it before I wussed out due to the cold weather. Seriously, I have no significant complaints about this bike.
But I'm just sort of in the mood for a bike build, and, if anything, the frame of this bike seems a little smaller than I expected. I have the bars raised on an extension to get them where I want them, which is basically level with the seat. I'm 5'9" with an inseam slightly over 30". Everything I read says I should be on about a 52 cm frame, but I went ahead and ordered a 54 on this bike and yet it still seems just a tad small. Plus, I would just love a nice, older, slightly relaxed lugged steel frame equipped with all the cool newer components from this bike.

Now, if I just go out now and buy a brand new new touring frame for this bike, my wife will shoot me. Plus, part of what I'm looking forward to is the process of stripping down an older frame, cleaning it all up and repainting in whatever colors I choose, and just basically putting some old steel back on the road. A hot rod, if you will.

But, how much trouble will I run into swapping all the great modern gear from the Moto onto an older frame? I would love to keep the 1 1/8" carbon forks and headset and the nice external cartridge bearing bottom bracket and just, well, everything. Right now I think I'd like to lose the front derailleur, replace the outer chain ring a nice chain guard and run the bike as a 1x10, add fenders, new seat, possibly a Brooks, possibly with a small suspension seat post for the times when I inadvertently whack the Chicago pot holes. I have found the brackets I would need to run the cantilever brakes on an older frame that does not have bosses. Seems like most older frames will accommodate the 32c tires the bike has or possibly the 35c that I'd like mount. Really the only thing I'm unsure of is the headset and forks, the bottom bracket, possibly getting the 10speed cluster into the frame, and maybe cable routing, although I don't see that the SRAM stuff needs anything special.

I've been watching for that magic deal on a tired old frame that is in good shape, save for it's paint, and I've got my eye on a couple here and there. But I don't want to invest in a frame and then have the project turn into a money pit.

So, what say you? Can it be done?

Thanks,

-T.
I think that Motobecan is a Fuji. If so the "center to top" measurement of 54cm in the geometry spec chart is to the top of the seatpost. If so, that 54 is close to what most manufacturers say is a 52. If it's not a Fuji, then C-T likely means to the top of the tube so it's effectively a 53. At your body height, a 53 or 54 might be slightly small. With your inseam, a 53 or 54 should be close to ideal.

You say you have the bars raised with an extension to get them where you want them, which is even with the seat. That doesn't seem right and may indicate a number of things - frame too small, saddle/seatpost isn't adjusted to right length, stem isn't right size, etc.

Can you post a picture of you seated on the bike? If not, take the bike to a local shop and ask them to fit you.
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Old 01-20-11, 10:06 PM
  #25  
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Wow! I am such a goof! I got the first reply to this thread at work one morning via e-mail, and completely forgot to actually check back in here at the forum. All this time I've been thinking, "Gosh, I only got one reply to that post?" It just dawned on me this evening so I finally got back over here and lo' and behold there is just a wealth of great opinions and advice! Thank you all SO much!

First and foremost, as the Moto sits right now, I'm perfectly happy with it, aside from thinking the spacer for the handle bars looks a bit goofy. It is quite comfortable. In hindsight, I might have been better off going with a size bigger. My pants inseam is 30" and I did my best to get my "real" inseam using the ol' book-in-the-crotch measuring technique and came up with a measurement pretty consistently of 32" So I could have gone 54 or 56 based on bikesdirect measurements. I believe I ended up choosing the 54 because I though I would like the slightly shorter reach I would have with the shorter top tube of the 54. So frame size is just a very small reason for wanting to do this build. The main reason was just for kicks. I think a nicely restored older frame with newer components would be pretty cool - kind of like the recent trend of building an older muscle car with a modern engine, brakes and suspension. To you purists, I promise I would never do anything to permanently alter a nice older frame such as grinding off the shifter bosses. Back in the day, I tore down and rebuilt bikes quite a bit, I've done quite a bit of work on my old Moab recently, and I had no problem tuning the Sram components on the new Moto, so I'm comfortable doing the build. I just didn't want to end up spending a bunch more money to do it.
But, after reading everything here, if I really decide that I just have to have a steel frame, I'll probably be better off just keeping my eyes out for a more current version, such as the Surly LHT, or the like. Or, if I really want to go "retro-mod" I just have to choose very carefully.

All that said, the Chicago winter bike swap is this Saturday, and I'm heading over there hoping to find some deals on winter gear and some other odds and ends for the Moto. If I happen on to a sweet deal on a nice Chicago built Schwinn frame, I may still fold like a lawn chair, and dive into this project anyway.

Thanks again so much for all the input. What great reading.

-T.
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