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Interesting new Swiss stash just came in for me (Delta)......

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Interesting new Swiss stash just came in for me (Delta)......

Old 01-16-11, 07:03 AM
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Chombi
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Interesting new Swiss stash just came in for me (Delta)......

Been watching these for a while and finaly could not resist getting it anymore after it went on sale last week....A sort of late C&V X-mas present to myself....


It's an NOS Weinmann Delta brakeset. Been really curious about these Weinmanns for a while and was quite surprised how much nicer they turned out to be when I finally got these to look at closely.
I put my Campy Deltas next to them for comparison and athough the Campy Delta beats it hands down finish and aesthetic-wise, the Weinmanns seem to have its own interesting, austere looks (Swiss/German?). Size is similar between the two with the Campys just a little bigger in some areas, but the Campy Deltas do seem to be a bit heavier, maybe because of it's all metal construction.


I was surprised to find out too that the Weinmanns have an articulating lever arm system like the Campagnolos (I thought they had a system more like Shimano's Adamas AX brakes that uses a rising "pie slice" cam against rollers) but with one less set of arms than the italian which I think will translate to lesser braking pressure at the pads....which bring up the question, are these Weinmann Deltas really "death" brakes as some had noted???
Read a few comments out there that they are mcuh weaker performers than the Camapagnolo Deltas, but I wonder if I'll find out when I try these on my Vitus Carbone. I think it will look real nice on the bike with its similar to the bike frame black and polished siver finishes. but I'm not planning to ride with them on hilly roads anytimetime soon.

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Old 01-16-11, 07:30 AM
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Suhweet!
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Old 01-16-11, 08:07 AM
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nice looking brakes. they would look great with some older Mavic SSC deraileurs.

and since you don't need those heavy, hard to adjust, difficult to stop with Deltas and will be just tossing them in the trash bin I'll give you a few scheckles for them
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Old 01-16-11, 03:58 PM
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Originally Posted by Bianchigirll View Post
nice looking brakes. they would look great with some older Mavic SSC deraileurs.

and since you don't need those heavy, hard to adjust, difficult to stop with Deltas and will be just tossing them in the trash bin I'll give you a few scheckles for them
Still holding up some hope of maybe starting an Italian bike build-up one of these days. Thought I'd do that last year, but did not get any further than getting a few C Delta pieces that included the Delta calipers. Just did not expect how much more expensive Italian stuff was going to cost, never mind trying to find that dream frame (SLX?) frame for the project. But I'll certainly keep you in mind if I do decide to give up doing that Italian build-up dream anytime soon. In the meantime I'll continue to watch out for the two French dream frames I am targetting for my next (more affordable/feasible) build-up project.

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Old 01-16-11, 10:17 PM
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Nice 250 GTO in the upper case! Mose aesthetically perfect car ever made! And no slouch on the track, either!

SP
Bend, OR
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Old 01-16-11, 11:24 PM
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Originally Posted by bobbycorno View Post
Nice 250 GTO in the upper case! Mose aesthetically perfect car ever made! And no slouch on the track, either!

SP
Bend, OR
Yes, the GTO's a very beautiful and iconic Ferrari:



I love it so much that I have two 1:18 scale models of the car.
But I like these two just as much or even more, in the case of the P4!:




Ferrari 330 P4 on top and Ferrari 512 BBLM below it.

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Old 01-16-11, 11:28 PM
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very cool. i always wondered how they compared. i would love to see internal shots of the two side by side.

they are the perfect brakes for the vitus.
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Old 01-17-11, 12:58 AM
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Originally Posted by thirdgenbird View Post
very cool. i always wondered how they compared. i would love to see internal shots of the two side by side.

they are the perfect brakes for the vitus.
After some hesitation this evening because of some threadlock on the pivot/front plate retaining bolts and the fear of the thing possibly flying apart because of pressure from the return spring, I finally was able to open up one of the Weinmann calipers and compare it's innards to the Campy Delta's:


obviuos differences is the Campy having three more sets of pivot arm plates (4 pairs total, two pairs in front and two in back of the cable, the Weinmann has a single short one in front and another similarly short one behind the cable) to actuate/push out the caliper arms. The Campy design definitely seems to be more sophisticated with it's arc shapes while the Weinmann's single pair of internal pivot arms seem to be just designed to fit in the caliper case. I'm wondering if the Campys arc shaped internal pivot arms makes a difference in actuating force application to the caliper arms by maybe being more linear, so modulation might be easier for the rider?? At least the Weinmann does not have a goofy sized cable anchoring bolt that the Campy does (3.5mm). The construction of the Campy Delta is also more robust with much bigger diameter pivot bolts, but I expected this before I saw what was inside the Weinmanns.
....I guess I better remember to put on some blue locktite on the pivot bolts again on the Weinmanns, lest they do end up as "death brakes".

Chombi

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Old 01-17-11, 01:57 AM
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Thanks for the enlightening pics; I've always wanted to see Delta guts : )

...Oh, and I'm afraid that 512 BBLM has to be one of the ugliest Ferraris ever conceived. It looks like some good ole boy tried to make it look like a NASCAR.
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Old 01-17-11, 03:56 AM
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Originally Posted by Kimmo View Post
Thanks for the enlightening pics; I've always wanted to see Delta guts : )

...Oh, and I'm afraid that 512 BBLM has to be one of the ugliest Ferraris ever conceived. It looks like some good ole boy tried to make it look like a NASCAR.
Glad I could help people here find out what these Delta brakes are all about.
I remember how cool it was for me when I first opened up my Campy Deltas. I was so surprised how much stuff was in it. Despite how many think that the calipers weren't so great, braking performance-wise, you can't say Campy didn't try hard with their design. The Weinmanns, although less impressive at first site on the outside, also does look like it had some effort put into it's design too, but it looks like not to the extent that Campy did with theirs. The Campy Delta calipers I have are the second generation and IIRC, supposedly have a more complicated pivot linkage design.

As for the BBLM most people either love it or hate it. I think it's mostly the head and driving light design that bothers people as frankly they do look ugly compared to lights on other racing Ferraris. Otherwise the rest of the car looks beautiful to me and many other Ferrari fans out there. You have to see the actual race car in the flesh as it look tons better doing so. We just wish that Pininfarina put a little bit more effort on designing the lights on it.

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Old 01-17-11, 05:15 AM
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Originally Posted by Chombi View Post
The Campy Delta calipers I have are the second generation and IIRC, supposedly have a more complicated pivot linkage design.
The ones in the phots in this thread are the simpler four point linkage - later ones have five points, hence the name "pentadrive". Perhaps that's what you meant but it isn't obvious.

The Weinmann design gives about half the mechanical advantage of the Campy design, for the simple reason that the upper cable anchor is fixed so for a given cable movement the brake shoes move about twice as far. You could partially compensate for this by using a brake lever with higher mechanical advantage but you will lose a lot in housing compression and cable stretch.

Originally Posted by Chombi View Post
The Campy design definitely seems to be more sophisticated with it's arc shapes while the Weinmann's single pair of internal pivot arms seem to be just designed to fit in the caliper case. I'm wondering if the Campys arc shaped internal pivot arms makes a difference in actuating force application to the caliper arms by maybe being more linear, so modulation might be easier for the rider??
No the curvature of the internal pivot arms is simply to allow a slightly greater range of motion. The secrets to the Campy design are that both the top and the bottom of the linkage move when the cable is pulled, increasing the mechanical advantage, and that the advantage increases as the angles of the arms change, from about 0.65 when the two anchors are as far apart as possible) to about 2.25 (when they are as close as possible). These figures apply to the later Pentadrive linkage as that's the one I have studied.

The Campy design suffered a lot of bad press but IMO they are brilliant brakes - I still use mine, grafted over to a new frame last year. If set up correctly and with decent shoes (the Campy originals are crap, I use Koolstops) they stop extremely effectively plus they have the best modulation of any brake I've ever used.

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Old 01-17-11, 06:59 AM
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Originally Posted by Mark Kelly View Post
The ones in the phots in this thread are the simpler four point linkage - later ones have five points, hence the name "pentadrive". Perhaps that's what you meant but it isn't obvious.

The Weinmann design gives about half the mechanical advantage of the Campy design, for the simple reason that the upper cable anchor is fixed so for a given cable movement the brake shoes move about twice as far. You could partially compensate for this by using a brake lever with higher mechanical advantage but you will lose a lot in housing compression and cable stretch.



No the curvature of the internal pivot arms is simply to allow a slightly greater range of motion. The secrets to the Campy design are that both the top and the bottom of the linkage move when the cable is pulled, increasing the mechanical advantage, and that the advantage increases as the angles of the arms change, from about 0.65 when the two anchors are as far apart as possible) to about 2.25 (when they are as close as possible). These figures apply to the later Pentadrive linkage as that's the one I have studied.

The Campy design suffered a lot of bad press but IMO they are brilliant brakes - I still use mine, grafted over to a new frame last year. If set up correctly and with decent shoes (the Campy originals are crap, I use Koolstops) they stop extremely effectively plus they have the best modulation of any brake I've ever used.
So, the mechanism in the Campys work in a progressive manner, not linear. I suspect that could be the case too. Just thought that a progressive action might result in grabby brakes, but I guess I was not correct with that thinking.
If I understand correctly, my Campy Delta calipers were maybe the second generation??, because of the front cover retainer ring style that does not have the knurled surface?? Was there a third gen then that had the "pentadrive" dsign that you mention?? Can you post a pic of that version for us? Just curios to see how 5 pivots fit in the caliper case. The version I have seems to be so crammed tight with stuff as it is.
Thanks for sharing your knowledge on the Deltas with us!
BTW, I weighed both Delta caliper sets and the Campy weigh about 100 grams heavier than the Weinmanns, and the Weinmanns weigh about 150 grams heavier than my CLB Compact Professionals, but the Weinmanns weigh exactly the same as my Mavic 440 (Modolo designed) calipers, so there's not always an automatic significant weight penalty with Delta type brakes as some might think.

Chombi

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Old 01-17-11, 07:06 AM
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Thanks for the pics and descriptions.

I really love the showcase filled with scale models.

I've been looking for a "scale" model project to do, and I think I'll go the hobby shop today.

Maybe I'll build a 917 of some heritage. I'll see what they have in stock.

My full sized BMW project is stalled till spring, so this will suffice nicely.

Oh yeah, did I say nice brakes!
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Old 01-17-11, 07:20 AM
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Originally Posted by gomango View Post
Thanks for the pics and descriptions.

I really love the showcase filled with scale models.

I've been looking for a "scale" model project to do, and I think I'll go the hobby shop today.

Maybe I'll build a 917 of some heritage. I'll see what they have in stock.

My full sized BMW project is stalled till spring, so this will suffice nicely.

Oh yeah, did I say nice brakes!
Thanks,
BTW, the car models are not built up from kits but pre-built 1:18 scale diecast models. I built my last kits back in college in the late 80's I'm older and much lazier now and wimp out immediately if I try to build a new kit these days.....judging from the many unfinished ones hidden away under my bed.....
The models I have on the pics were made by companies like Kyosho, BBR, GMP, Spark, Exoto, Minichamps, CMC.....and many others. If you want "instant" car model gratification, you should check them out And if you are sinterested in classic Porsches, there are many real nice diecast models to choose from: Here my Porsche display "shrine" where you might spot a few 917 based racers:


Guess I'm revealing I'm just as much of a nut for classic race cars as I am of classic race bikes... I wish I could also afford the cars in full size too, but that might take winning the big lotto to do!

Chombi

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Old 01-17-11, 07:42 AM
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Originally Posted by Chombi View Post
Thanks,
BTW, the car models are not built up from kits but pre-built 1:18 scale diecast models. I built my last kits back in college in the late 80's I'm older and much lazier now and wimp out immediately if I try to build a new kit these days.....judging from the many unfinished ones hidden away under my bed.....
The models I have on the pics were made by companies like Kyosho, BBR, GMP, Spark, Exoto, Minichamps, CMC.....and many others. If you want "instant" car model gratification, you should check them out And if you are sinterested in classic Porsches, there are many real nice diecast models to choose from: Here my Porsche display "shrine" where you might spot a few 917 based racers:


Guess I'm revealing I'm just as much of a nut for classic race cars as I am of classic race bikes... I wish I could also afford the cars in full size too, but that might take winning the big lotto to do!

Chombi
So very cool!

The die-cast models I have seen in person are so beautiful!

All of your models are wonderful and such attention to detail.

We have a severe slot car "issue" at our house as well. Maybe 250 feet of Scalextrix "Sport" track available, which is enough to build most of the famous circuits of the world.

We went through a huge Trans-Am series reenactment during the holidays.

Your Porsche display area is just super. Any livery stick out as a must own?

Bike content: I haven't seen Weinmanns in person. The finish looks very nice indeed.
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Old 01-17-11, 09:07 AM
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Originally Posted by gomango View Post
Any livery stick out as a must own?
The Gulf light blue and red (the #20 one in the front center of my display) livery is a must have for most collections. It's connected to the historic 917 racers as "Celeste" color is for Bianchi bicycles. "Martini" team 917s are a very close second.

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Old 01-17-11, 09:16 AM
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Very nice display of cars!!! I have just recently built two Kenny Roberts Yamaha motos from Tamiya kits. It was a fun experience but now I am burned out for another 20 years
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Old 01-18-11, 12:51 AM
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Originally Posted by Chombi View Post
If I understand correctly, my Campy Delta calipers were maybe the second generation??, because of the front cover retainer ring style that does not have the knurled surface?? Was there a third gen then that had the "pentadrive" dsign that you mention?? Can you post a pic of that version for us?

Chombi
Several versions are listed here: https://campagnolodelta.blogspot.com/...&max-results=1

According to this, yours are third generation and mine are fifth.

The author of the blog seems to know a lot of Campy history but obviously doesn't know how to set up Deltas properly, judging by his comments on their functional properties. I recently rode my son's bike (which has my old Chorus monoplanars on it) and this reinforced the superiority of Deltas over that brakeset.

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