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Lyotard Pedal Danger

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Lyotard Pedal Danger

Old 01-23-11, 12:22 PM
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Originally Posted by MrEss
You seem really attached to these pedals... maybe you could find a local machinist that could make some new spindles out of a better, modern steel?
It would not be a huge surprise if one already existed. They are a unique looking pedal, it would be cool to find a reliable spindle. First the "death stem" and now the "death pedal".
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Old 01-23-11, 12:51 PM
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I would suspect those circumferential grooves (machining flaws) played a role. Whether the steel is unintentionally hydrogen embrittled or intentionally hardened (both are brittle), add in a few surface defects (flaws) and you get fractures.

Brittle materials are notch sensitive - that's just the way it is.
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Old 01-23-11, 01:09 PM
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Originally Posted by ftwelder
It would not be a huge surprise if one already existed. They are a unique looking pedal, it would be cool to find a reliable spindle. First the "death stem" and now the "death pedal".
- Add to that the Viscount "death fork" and maybe some Schwalbe ULTREMO R tires, and it would make for an exciting ride.
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Old 01-23-11, 03:45 PM
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I'm not sure about the role the pedal has in the stresses exerted on the spindle.
Me neither. Still, it seems likely the design is a contributing factor. Just like in a hub or a crank, correct adjustment distributes uneven loads across the two bearing races. If the adjustment is too loose, the load will concentrate on one bearing more than the other, which can introduce (or increase) a bending force on the axle. Just a guess.
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Old 01-23-11, 04:13 PM
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Originally Posted by MrEss
You seem really attached to these pedals...
Yeah, it's the classic and vintage enthusiast in me.

Originally Posted by MrEss
maybe you could find a local machinist that could make some new spindles out of a better, modern steel?
I think you mean a local foundry. So you don't subscribe to the pedal body design contributing to the spindle failure, then,
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Old 01-23-11, 04:34 PM
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Originally Posted by aixaix
Me neither. Still, it seems likely the design is a contributing factor. Just like in a hub or a crank, correct adjustment distributes uneven loads across the two bearing races. If the adjustment is too loose, the load will concentrate on one bearing more than the other, which can introduce (or increase) a bending force on the axle. Just a guess.
Not necessarliy the design as much as the manufacturing defects, process variability, etc. For example, there is nothing obviously wrong with the shape of the spindle. I would suspect it was accidentally through-hardened when case hardening is all that was call for, or as others have said, hydrogen embrittled without proper annealing afterwards, etc. Combine either with a surface flaw,...
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Old 01-23-11, 04:41 PM
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Originally Posted by aixaix
Me neither. Still, it seems likely the design is a contributing factor. Just like in a hub or a crank, correct adjustment distributes uneven loads across the two bearing races. If the adjustment is too loose, the load will concentrate on one bearing more than the other, which can introduce (or increase) a bending force on the axle. Just a guess.
I was wondering the same thing yesterday as I adjusted the bearings on another NOS 460D I'd just stripped & greased for the Peugeot. I checked the other side and there was a tiny amount of play. I can see that could put more strain on the outer bearing and increase the leverage effect on the spindle. As Archimedes might have said, “Give me a bearing loose enough and I can break a Lyotard spindle.”

I'm thinking of calling Mikashima today and asking them about it. I phoned them once before about some pedal caps for my Campag pedals (back when all my pedals were Campagnolo) and they were very helpful.
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Old 01-23-11, 04:46 PM
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Originally Posted by auchencrow
- Add to that the Viscount "death fork" and maybe some Schwalbe ULTREMO R tires, and it would make for an exciting ride.
Listen to music as I ride at night without lights on the wrong side of the road while texting, you mean...? (You'd be amazed at how often you see that in Tokyo!)
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Old 01-23-11, 04:49 PM
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Originally Posted by auchencrow
- Add to that the Viscount "death fork" and maybe some Schwalbe ULTREMO R tires, and it would make for an exciting ride.
Don't forget the Mavic "R-Sys"wheels:
https://velonews.competitor.com/2009/...-failure_93054
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Old 01-23-11, 04:50 PM
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Originally Posted by Mike Mills
I would suspect those circumferential grooves (machining flaws) played a role. Whether the steel is unintentionally hydrogen embrittled or intentionally hardened (both are brittle), add in a few surface defects (flaws) and you get fractures.

Brittle materials are notch sensitive - that's just the way it is.
The point at which the spindles have broken don't have a notch. The 4 notches to the left are the only ones. The design does suggest that the closer to the crank you get, the more stress there is.
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Old 01-23-11, 07:22 PM
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Originally Posted by Dawes-man
The point at which the spindles have broken don't have a notch. The 4 notches to the left are the only ones. The design does suggest that the closer to the crank you get, the more stress there is.
Look very carefully at the spindles. You will see small circumferential rings (machining marks) in the top spindle. The second one has a very rough surface, pock-marked with all sorts of surfaceimperfections. The bottom one ios harder to see, as it has a surface coating on it. I was not referring to the large, tapered steps in the spindle's profile as you move outboard.

In a cantilevered beam, it is the root that is most highly stressed. To have it snap in the middle of a shaft of uniform diameter other than at the root implies the presence of some sort of stress concentration such that the highest stress is at the defect rather than at the root. Hence, it fails at the defect rather than the root. The harder the material, the more brittle it becomes and the more sensitive it becomes to defects.

Note how they all broke at a slightly different spot. They are all similar but not identical. Why did each break where it did? My argument in reply is - each spindle's unique defects cause it to fail where it did.

It's just a theory developed by long-distance viewing of a couple of photos. It may or may not be correct.

Last edited by Mike Mills; 01-23-11 at 07:32 PM.
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Old 01-23-11, 07:35 PM
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I am seeing a decent amount of elongation at the center of the spindle. It is the surface that appears to be fairly brittle. Overall, it looks pretty grainy (large grains). Is this the result of fatigue or is it poor initial metallurgy?

One of the silver spindles does appear to have some fatigue striations at the initial fracture site. You can also see a distinct layer on the surface.

Very interesting. Thanks for posting this.

Last edited by Mike Mills; 01-23-11 at 07:43 PM.
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Old 01-23-11, 07:37 PM
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Great, I've just acquired my first set of 460s with my C.N.C. purchase. You may have pushed my decision to retap the cranks 9/16 over the tipping point.
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Old 01-23-11, 07:37 PM
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What a bummer! I'm glad you weren't maimed.

I can't see how a bad cage design, or even bad cage construction, could cause the spindle to fail. I would not ride your remaining pedals with original spindles. It shouldn't be too hard to find different spindles (with the right cones and locknuts of course); the cups and cones should be fairly forgiving, and you may be able to correct for a minor size difference by going to larger or smaller balls. I'd definitely try that.

Good luck! Though I must say, I don't understand your love for these pedals. They've let you down too many times. On the other hand I must admit, I have a pair of Lyotard pedals on the Fothergill and I thought they were pretty nice... and now I am wondering of I should use them. I'm definitely going to take them apart and consider changing the spindles.
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Old 01-23-11, 07:38 PM
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Poor initial metallurgy is indeed a possibility. Over the years I have broken several rear axles; one was Campagnolo, but all of the others were French (Normandy, Atom, etc.).
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Old 01-24-11, 12:57 AM
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I had a Lyotard... 146? Maybe?... bend on me as i was JRA. Left side, my chocolate foot, which makes sense. I swapped it out for an identical one, but I'm actually going to swap out both for the MKS Touring.

My daily (winter) ride has Weinmann stamped-steel platform pedals, I am very happy with them. I had occasion to cut one of them apart a while back (long story, customer bike) and MAN that was one tough spindle, took two new bimetal hacksaw blades to get through it, which to me says the spindle was properly heat-treated and not case-hardened.
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Old 01-24-11, 01:09 AM
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Originally Posted by auchencrow
- Add to that the Viscount "death fork" and maybe some Schwalbe ULTREMO R tires, and it would make for an exciting ride.
Don't forget a nice set of Mavic R-SYS wheels...
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Old 01-24-11, 02:16 AM
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Originally Posted by ftwelder
It would not be a huge surprise if one already existed. They are a unique looking pedal, it would be cool to find a reliable spindle. First the "death stem" and now the "death pedal".
My feelings exactly. If I can't find a spindle to fit I'll go with Mikashima on my 3 more modern bikes and look round for an equally pleasing older pedal. Trouble is, the period alternatives (Chater Lea, BSA, BOA, Brampton) are so expensive. Part of the charm of the Lyotards is their cheapness.
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Old 01-24-11, 02:29 AM
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Originally Posted by Mike Mills
I am seeing a decent amount of elongation at the center of the spindle. It is the surface that appears to be fairly brittle. Overall, it looks pretty grainy (large grains). Is this the result of fatigue or is it poor initial metallurgy?

One of the silver spindles does appear to have some fatigue striations at the initial fracture site. You can also see a distinct layer on the surface.

Very interesting. Thanks for posting this.
Well, thank you for your very interesting suggestions! I see what you mean by the rings on the 2 lighter colour spindles and about the points of breakage being due to them being the points of weakness.

I've just removed the right hand pedal from the Peugeot to remove the play and took the spindle out for a couple of photos:

[IMG]
IMG_5321 by Dawes-man, on Flickr[/IMG]

And the other side:

[IMG]
IMG_5319 by Dawes-man, on Flickr[/IMG]

The lens makes it look curved.

The surface on one side doesn't look good to me at all.

I'm starting to look round for alternatives... as I wrote above, Mikashima for my newer bikes and some other kind of old rat trap for my older ones.
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Old 01-24-11, 02:40 AM
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If I go got period correct, this is the sort of thing I'm looking at:
https://cgi.ebay.co.uk/BSA-PEDALS-4-P...#ht_611wt_1141

or this:
https://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Vintage-BOA-pe...ht_5951wt_1141

Phew! I have 6 pairs to find...

Perhaps it's understandable that I would like to stay with the Lyotards if I can

Last edited by Dawes-man; 01-24-11 at 02:44 AM.
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Old 01-24-11, 04:58 PM
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Perhaps it's understandable that I would like to stay with the Lyotards if I can
Reading this makes my nether regions twinge. You've been spared serious injury so far; don't wait for fate to send you a registered letter warning you of the consequences...

You don't need to replace them all at once with period-correct pedals. There are plenty of inexpensive pedals around that will do while you hunt down more desirable replacements. Around here, most bike shops have a milk crate or two filled with good used pedals.
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Old 01-24-11, 05:17 PM
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Is Lyotard still in business? If so, they have a vested interest in these failures and you should contact them. They might send you some replacement pedals.
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Old 01-24-11, 06:22 PM
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Wow, Thanks for the heads up on these brand pedals, I just scored a french bike( Equipe) and they had them on it.

It was free so no loss, I think I will take them apart and see if anything indicates a problem with the spindle.

If I am lightweight rider and do not hammer at all on the pedal strokes,do you all think it is still safe to use them?..... if I don't see a problem.

Thanks, again. 3SS
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Old 01-24-11, 06:26 PM
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it is not wrong, it's just french.
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Old 01-24-11, 06:30 PM
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Originally Posted by Mike Mills
Is Lyotard still in business? If so, they have a vested interest in these failures and you should contact them. They might send you some replacement pedals.
Lyotard must be long dead by now, like many other French cyclo parts companies. It might have died even before Spidel came about to try and save the French bicycle industry. You see lots of them around in old and NOS condition as they made jillions of their pedals to supply the once gigantic French bicycle industry and owners that need to keep them on the road.

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