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Lyotard Pedal Danger

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Lyotard Pedal Danger

Old 01-25-11, 11:17 PM
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This thread has me fascinated. I was thinking about it as I rode home tonight, pumping away on my MKS Touring pedals that look oh-so-much like those Lyotards.

It seems to me that it as important to know where the load was applied as it is to know how much load was applied. If you have your foot fully and firmly inserted inthe pedal, maybe even strapped in, then your power is applied at the ball of your foot and probably goes into the spindle via the ball bearings (near the root of the shaft).

If you are just getting started or are sloppily pedalling, it is entirely possible your power (force) is going into the spindle via the outer bearings because you are pressing on the outboard part of the pedal - not via the ball of your foot.

The bending moment is going to VERY different for those two cases. I am certain of this because there is absolutely no way that flimsy central sleeve can carry any significant load from the outboard end of the pedal to the inboard bearing - it is too flexible. I wish I had my handbooks here at home to look up the relative stress for equal load applied at the outer versus inner bearings. I would not be at all surprised if it was 10:1, or more.

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Old 01-25-11, 11:19 PM
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Originally Posted by unterhausen
the pedal stroke that caused the failure doesn't have to be much because the crack had progressed to the point that it didn't take much to break it in half.
Yes, that's what I thought, too. I wish I could've seen the crack as it could only add to the huge leap in understanding this thread has led me to. I'm very grateful for the help!
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Old 01-26-11, 12:42 PM
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Originally Posted by MikeX
If it were my pedals and nuts, I’d
1) Polish the pedal shafts in the area where the fractures are occurring to a 600 grit or better finish to minimize the stress risers and make subsequent inspections easier. Various abrasive papers and cloths make that reasonable even if you have to use them “shoe shine” method. Better if you can run the final polish marks parallel to the spindle rather than circumferential.
2) I’d tear down the pedals every few hundred to a thousand hours of riding (if you ride a couple plus hours a day that’s about once a year) and seriously eye ball the suspect area for cracks. Dye penetrant or magnetic particle inspection would be a bonus but is probably overkill if you’re diligent about looking for cracking. Less so after the first couple of thousand hours. There is a “fatigue limit” for steel parts. Barring impacts, steel parts (does not apply to aluminum ect.) subjected to ten to the seven cycles (10 million cycles) without failure are unlikely to ever fail. 1000 hours of cycling at 100 rpm equals 6 million cycles.
Thirty years after the last Lyotard 460D was manufactured we're finally seeing fatigue failures. I am sure nobody who made those pedals ever foresaw a 30+ year service life.

In the days before clip-in MTB pedals (SPD, Crank Brothers, Look, & Time), Lyotard 460Ds were the favored pedal for professional cyclocross. They were rugged, smooth turning, and wide enough for quick entry and exit with muddy shoes. One standard setup then was football boots with all but the toe cleats removed, fitted with slotted cycling cleats, and doubled steel toeclips (to prevent squashing) bolted to Lyotard 460Ds. The straps were tightened only before the final sprint.
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Old 01-29-11, 08:29 PM
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The Mikashima Sylvan Touring pedals arrived yesterday. I've taken one apart and the spindle fits in the Lyotard 460D pedal body okay but it's too short to fit the lock-nut to the end after the bearing cone.

The spindle designs are the same:

[IMG]
IMG_5382 by Dawes-man, on Flickr[/IMG]

The Mikashima spindle looks to be of higher quality with the surface showing clear signs of having been bead blasted for strength, or 'shot peened', as mentioned earlier by Mike Mills.

[IMG]
IMG_5383 by Dawes-man, on Flickr[/IMG]

The spindle fits into the body okay but the very thick bearing cone fitted leaves no room for the washer and lock-nut:


IMG_5384 by Dawes-man, on Flickr

The balls in both the Lyotard and the Mikashima pedals measure exactly 3.9mm across and I think this, together with the general design of the pedals and spindles, clearly shows that Mikashima copied the Lyotard design.

And now? I've bought 2 pairs of the Mikashima pedals and will fit them to my Chesini Pista and my touring bike, the Peugeot. I've bought a pair of Constrictor platform pedals that will go on my Thanet (when it's finished), as they have short threads for steel cranks. I've bought a pair of Bramptons for the Hetchins MO. I've decided to take all my Lyotard pedals apart to polish the spindles and then check for cracks or imperfections.

I went to visit my English Lightweight collector friend yesterday and took the broken spindle and pedal to show him. He works for Honda Research & Development and said he would show the spindle to someone at work who would probably be able to say exactly what had happened. I shall post anything he tells me here.

In the meantime, I would like to thank everyone for your interest and suggestions. I have learnt a hell of a lot. Thank you!
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Old 01-29-11, 10:57 PM
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Are the threads for the outer cone the same between the two?
If so, what about using the original Lyotard cone?

As I said earlier, I remember running into a complication(that I cannot remember the details of) but I was able to overcome it.
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Old 01-30-11, 02:21 AM
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Originally Posted by Sierra
Are the threads for the outer cone the same between the two?
If so, what about using the original Lyotard cone?

As I said earlier, I remember running into a complication(that I cannot remember the details of) but I was able to overcome it.
Unfortunately, no. Much bigger on the Mikashima. However, it has occurred to me that I could get the end re-threaded to the Lyotard size and then, as you suggest, use the original cone etc. The only problem I can foresee is if the Lyotard threads are... strange.
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Old 01-30-11, 02:29 AM
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Bead blasting and shot peening are different.

Bead blasting tends to remove material and/or roughen the surface. Shot peening uses larger shot (non-abrasive) that just bangs into the surface without removing material. It is a bulk process that replicates hitting the surface with a hammer - all over.

I have the MKS pedals on my most recent build. They are a nice pedal, probably a worthy heir to the Lyotard (probably better). I like the wide cages.
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Old 01-30-11, 03:30 AM
  #83  
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Originally Posted by Mike Mills
Bead blasting and shot peening are different.

Bead blasting tends to remove material and/or roughen the surface. Shot peening uses larger shot (non-abrasive) that just bangs into the surface without removing material. It is a bulk process that replicates hitting the surface with a hammer - all over.
My education continues

Originally Posted by Mike Mills
I have the MKS pedals on my most recent build. They are a nice pedal, probably a worthy heir to the Lyotard (probably better). I like the wide cages.
I'm sure they are better and I look forward to using them on 2 of my bikes.
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Old 05-24-14, 11:20 AM
  #84  
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I have had an almost exactly similar breakage using this pedal. Mine was on a Rene Herse from 1968 and are the aluminum cages. My break was closer to the crank and looks VERY different in the break area. It has signs of initiating with a surface crack that was circumferential. There is darker metal staining from oxidation and deposits in this area that rings the break. My spindle must have been this way for some time preceding the catastrophic failure.
The new area of the break looks like a thousand zirconium diamonds all glittering!
I'll try to attach a picture if someone is interested in seeing the break. I would describe it as 60 grit sand paper roughness and as uniformly flat and shear except for one pointy bump about 0.5 mm high near the center. It is very sparkly.
It (in my opinion) Would be insane for anyone to continue ridding on these pedals. The low speed/pressure failure mentioned by DAWES is very concerning. Mine happened in an out of the saddle sprint over a rise at about 20 mph. I was in a left turn sprinting.... If it had been the LRFT pedal then I would have gone down with a hard slap. I was saved by the fact that this was the right pedal and I think only the Angels kept me upright. I am shaken and concerned
Don't use these pedals! This is a really big deal and there is something critically wrong with the design at this point in history. AND I do feel that the big guys are showing the stress first. I am 6'6" tall (199 cm for you euros) and am applying more force as I try to build up to 600 km brevets. The pedal broke like a balsa twig when it went.

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Old 05-24-14, 11:31 AM
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I am sure you could swap the spindles from a lesser set of Lyotard pedals...
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Old 05-24-14, 11:43 AM
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Originally Posted by oldbobcat
Thirty years after the last Lyotard 460D was manufactured we're finally seeing fatigue failures. I am sure nobody who made those pedals ever foresaw a 30+ year service life.

In the days before clip-in MTB pedals (SPD, Crank Brothers, Look, & Time), Lyotard 460Ds were the favored pedal for professional cyclocross. They were rugged, smooth turning, and wide enough for quick entry and exit with muddy shoes. One standard setup then was football boots with all but the toe cleats removed, fitted with slotted cycling cleats, and doubled steel toeclips (to prevent squashing) bolted to Lyotard 460Ds. The straps were tightened only before the final sprint.
Actually it's 40yrs for most of these and they have less than 10percent long term fail rate.
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Old 05-24-14, 11:50 AM
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Zukahn,
How did you determine a less than 10% failure rate?
Who collects these statistics?
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Old 05-24-14, 05:23 PM
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What do you replace them with if you need French threading?

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Old 05-24-14, 05:35 PM
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Anyone have a spare dust cap they want to send me?

(Holdsworth needs one)
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Old 08-28-14, 11:51 AM
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Another case of a Lyotard pedal spindle break. I have 136R, a steel cage version with reflectors. Spindle broke future out on the spindle. Pictures tonight.
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Old 08-29-14, 07:14 AM
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Old 08-29-14, 07:15 AM
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Geeze. That's scary.
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Old 08-29-14, 09:13 AM
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Originally Posted by bikemore
Looks like they should have made the taper longer, like on some other Lyotard spindles. I'm using some mod. 23 pedals with these axles. So far no problems...


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Old 08-29-14, 04:50 PM
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didn't read the whole thread, so maybe i missed it ... but if any of the pedals needed to replace (with mks sylvans) are french threaded, how does the op intend to tackle this issue?
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Old 08-29-14, 08:03 PM
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Originally Posted by 2flit
Zukahn,
How did you determine a less than 10% failure rate?
Who collects these statistics?
Basicaly from experiance of the 50 or sets I have come across on vintage bikes 9 out of ten where good to go with a basic servicing.
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Old 08-29-14, 08:28 PM
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Originally Posted by eschlwc
didn't read the whole thread, so maybe i missed it ... but if any of the pedals needed to replace (with mks sylvans) are french threaded, how does the op intend to tackle this issue?
Easiest way is to re-tap the crank arms to 9/16" x 20tpi.
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Old 08-30-14, 12:36 PM
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Dammit. Something else to worry about. Anybody ever have one of these break?
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Old 08-30-14, 04:06 PM
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Sounds like they have a 40 year service life, at the low end.
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Old 08-30-14, 06:03 PM
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Originally Posted by auchencrow
- Add to that the Viscount "death fork" and maybe some Schwalbe ULTREMO R tires, and it would make for an exciting ride.
Don't forget to also use a Pivo "Death Stem"
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Old 06-17-21, 06:08 PM
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stress test

Originally Posted by zukahn1
Basicaly from experiance of the 50 or sets I have come across on vintage bikes 9 out of ten where good to go with a basic servicing.
That would be fine except they are now failing for riders after 30+ years of use, The fact that you find 90% of them still intact on a vintage bicycle is rather meaningless for those of us out there ridding these pedals hard.
The bikes are up to it but not these pedals.
Read back up to my first post and my experience shearing one of these off. I suppose they are probably fine for a slow ride on the flat but they are now failing on us ridders. I don't collect vintag bikes, I ride vintage bikes and these pedals are now proving to be unsafe and they should no longer be on a bike that you plan to ride. Anything else is foolish , especially after reviewing the failures seen up-thread.
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