A Tale of Two 1974 Raleigh Internationals: A study of quality difference
02-05-11, 07:30 PM
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Thank you Kurt! You've cured my longing for a Carlton made frame. I'm more content than ever with Raleigh's Japanese made fames.
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02-05-11, 08:05 PM
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'71 International with a crooked bird.
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02-05-11, 08:18 PM
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Thank you so much for this thread. I owned a '74 International with a "W" series serial number identical to Exhibit "B" in the OP. Those lugs were so nice looking and well done to me, it was my first high end Campagnolo Nuovo Record equipped bicycle. The ride was very smooth and it cornered well. (I rode it as a racing frame and did primarily fast group rides and Criteriums) I credit some of the good manners to the tubular tires that came on the bicycle. I rode the Hutchinsons until they needed replacement then went to Clement for the replacement. Great memories, I wish I had not sold the International in order to buy a Motobecane Grand Jubilee, nice but not quite the same ride quality.
Bill
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02-05-11, 08:49 PM
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I just looked at the work on my Raleigh Olympian 83'. Its actually pretty good, except they missed just a tiny bit with some of the gold paint on the headtube.
I also noticed some numbers stamped into the headtube lugs for the first time.
on the top left 73 bottom left 61
on the top right top and bottom E followed by a symbol that looks like a C and another offset reversed C touching eachother.
What do these numbers mean?
I also noticed some numbers stamped into the headtube lugs for the first time.
on the top left 73 bottom left 61
on the top right top and bottom E followed by a symbol that looks like a C and another offset reversed C touching eachother.
What do these numbers mean?
02-05-11, 09:32 PM
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73 is the angle the lug was designed for - for a touring frame, a 73 degree head angle is about right. Dunno about the 61 or the letters.
DD
DD
Last edited by Drillium Dude; 02-05-11 at 11:45 PM.
02-05-11, 10:47 PM
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61 would be the angle of the HT/DT lug
02-05-11, 11:30 PM
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Originally Posted by rhm
How do Professionals measure up, in comparison? I've heard this criticism of Internationals many times, not just on this forum; but I've never heard the same said of Professionals. As I recall the workmanship on my Pro was really quite nice, though I always thought it a very boring frame in comparison to the Internationals.
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02-06-11, 07:11 AM
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Originally Posted by qcpmsame
Thank you so much for this thread. I owned a '74 International with a "W" series serial number identical to Exhibit "B" in the OP.
That said, I'd be interested in knowing the serial system on KonAaron's and djkashuba's frames. Same for Poprad's Competition G.S., for that matter.
Originally Posted by USAZorro
The Competition doesn't come up to the same standards, but it's still decently brazed. My SuperCourse doesn't have gaps, but the brazing is sloppy in spots.
-Kurt
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02-06-11, 07:12 AM
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Originally Posted by qcpmsame
I wish I had not sold the International in order to buy a Motobecane Grand Jubilee, nice but not quite the same ride quality.
-Kurt
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02-06-11, 07:49 AM
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F3791 on the BB
-djkashuba
-djkashuba
02-06-11, 08:08 AM
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Originally Posted by djkashuba
F3791 on the BB
-Kurt
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02-06-11, 08:39 AM
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Originally Posted by cudak888
Interesting. This is the input I was looking for in the first place - evidence that one of the two serial number systems used on certain Carlton frames may indicate a better build quality than the other (with the possibility that there were two distinct assembly lines; each with their own set of unique framebuilders assigned to each one).
That said, I'd be interested in knowing the serial system on KonAaron's and djkashuba's frames. Same for Poprad's Competition G.S., for that matter.
What serial systems are on the Comp and SC?
-Kurt
That said, I'd be interested in knowing the serial system on KonAaron's and djkashuba's frames. Same for Poprad's Competition G.S., for that matter.
What serial systems are on the Comp and SC?
-Kurt
02-06-11, 08:43 AM
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Originally Posted by KonAaron Snake
A2473...but I'm not sure you can draw conclusions from mine since I THINK the first time they used W to denote Carlton was 1974.
Any other 1974-76 International owners want to chime in with their serial and seatstay cap specs?
-Kurt
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02-06-11, 11:05 AM
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My '74 Int'l has a Worksop serial # (starts with WM4) and non-wrap around seat stays.
Neal
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02-06-11, 11:15 AM
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Originally Posted by nlerner
My '74 Int'l has a Worksop serial # (starts with WM4) and non-wrap around seat stays.
-Kurt
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02-06-11, 12:54 PM
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Originally Posted by cudak888
Neal, could you do me a favor and post a complete photo of it? I'd like to use it as an example of a silver International on The Headbadge.
-Kurt
-Kurt
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02-06-11, 01:20 PM
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Originally Posted by nlerner
Just as soon as the 70" of snow we've had this winter melts from my photo spots!
-Kurt
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02-06-11, 07:30 PM
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Sorry, my Comp GS is in storage and I don't have access to it right now. No pics of ser # either.
02-06-11, 11:25 PM
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Originally Posted by cudak888
...What serial systems are on the Comp and SC?
-Kurt
-Kurt
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02-07-11, 12:00 AM
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I had an International many years ago. One time I took it to a framebuilder to have some work done on it, and after checking it out he congratulated me on having "one of the good ones". I didn't know what he was talking about.
02-07-11, 08:08 AM
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Originally Posted by kroozer
I had an International many years ago. One time I took it to a framebuilder to have some work done on it, and after checking it out he congratulated me on having "one of the good ones". I didn't know what he was talking about.
Good thing that Exhibit B seems to be OK throughout.
-Kurt
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02-07-11, 01:24 PM
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Originally Posted by Drillium Dude
73 is the angle the lug was designed for - for a touring frame, a 73 degree head angle is about right.
Originally Posted by 4Rings6Stars
61 would be the angle of the HT/DT lug
Also I still dont know what the E followed by the kind of S symbol made out of two C's means on the other side. Maybe that stands for the company that made the lugs?
02-07-11, 01:31 PM
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Originally Posted by NukeouT
Thats neat. They just left that information stamped in there for me to find. Is that a mark of better or worse craftsmanship than not having those numbers?
-Kurt
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02-07-11, 04:35 PM
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FYI, new Raleigh International page at www.theheadbadge.com:
DL-170:
The Raleigh International
-Kurt
DL-170:
The Raleigh International
-Kurt
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02-07-11, 05:25 PM
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Originally Posted by cudak888
It's preferable for a framebuilder to fill these stampings, but that was often overlooked back in the day. You'll find mmany Schwinn Paramounts have the 73 degree stamping on their Nervex seattube lug clearly visible.
-Kurt
-Kurt
