Go Back  Bike Forums > Bike Forums > Classic & Vintage
Reload this Page >

Campy Rally Vs Campy Record W/ Ralley long arms

Notices
Classic & Vintage This forum is to discuss the many aspects of classic and vintage bicycles, including musclebikes, lightweights, middleweights, hi-wheelers, bone-shakers, safety bikes and much more.

Campy Rally Vs Campy Record W/ Ralley long arms

Old 02-21-11, 01:54 PM
  #1  
-holiday76
No one cares
Thread Starter
 
-holiday76's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Yardley, Pa
Posts: 6,141
Mentioned: 38 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 222 Post(s)
Liked 67 Times in 51 Posts
Campy Rally Vs Campy Record W/ Ralley long arms

Just wondering if anyone else has had any experience with both?

I have a pat '73 Campy Record short cage mech that I swapped to some NOS rally arms I found. I've got it on my Fuji Finest and I'm pretty happy with how it shifts. Not as good as modern stuff by any means, but it's not bad with a minimal amount of monkeying with it to shift it. I'm shifting it with suntour bar ends and modern cables and housing. I think I have it shifting a 6 speed suntour winner freewheel with a 34t big ring.

I also have a first gen Campy Rally that I'm now toying with. I'm shifting it with campy bar ends and modern cables/housing. It's also shifting a 6 speed, suntour winner 34t big ring. It's on my Carlton, which has not been ridden yet, only shifted on the work stand, but I can already tell that the shifting isnt as precise. I'm using different housing, so that could be the difference i guess. I don't even have a chain on it yet so this probably isnt even a fair assessment yet. It just doesnt seem like the derailleur body moves fluidly and predictably. I also had to majorly tighten the campy bar ends to get them to hold the cable in place. The system has no micro adjustments either, so adjusting it isnt very easy. I can't remember if the fuji setup is the same way.

I'll report back more info once I take the carlton for a ride, but I'm not expecting much out of the setup right now.

So has anyone else shifted both a record long arm conversion AND a rally? Did you get similiar results from one to the other?
__________________
I prefer emails to private messages - holiday76@gmail.com
Jack Taylor Super Tourer Tandem (FOR SALE), Jack Taylor Tour of Britain, Px-10, Carlton Flyer, Fuji The Finest, Salsa Fargo, Santa Cruz Tallboy, Carver All-Road .


-holiday76 is offline  
Old 02-21-11, 02:40 PM
  #2  
cudak888 
www.theheadbadge.com
 
cudak888's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Southern Florida
Posts: 26,901

Bikes: https://www.theheadbadge.com

Mentioned: 83 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1680 Post(s)
Liked 2,150 Times in 1,206 Posts
The sprung upper pivot of the first-gen Rally allows its parallelogram to pivot backwards, thereby pulling the pulley cage along with it; reducing chain wrap.

Instead of force-feeding the chain onto the next cog, as the second-gen Rally (or a converted NR) would do - resulting in a quick, though noisy shift - the increased distance between jockey and pulley wheel allows the chain to dance around a bit more until you overshift to compensate.

Say what you want about the sprung upper pivot on the Rally or Simplex Prestige; they don't work for me. Not unless paired with a ramped UG freewheel. HG and IG work as well.

-Kurt
__________________







cudak888 is offline  
Old 02-21-11, 02:58 PM
  #3  
ColonelJLloyd 
Senior Member
 
ColonelJLloyd's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Louisville
Posts: 8,382
Mentioned: 18 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 110 Post(s)
Liked 9 Times in 8 Posts
I can't offer any help regarding the derailleur, but I'm pretty certain replacing your freewheel with a SunRace, Sunlite, Shimano, et al HG model will help shifting big time. Pretty hard to beat the improvement you get for what the freewheel costs.
__________________
Bikes on Flickr
I prefer email to private messages. You can contact me at justinhughes@me.com
ColonelJLloyd is offline  
Old 02-21-11, 03:04 PM
  #4  
cudak888 
www.theheadbadge.com
 
cudak888's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Southern Florida
Posts: 26,901

Bikes: https://www.theheadbadge.com

Mentioned: 83 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1680 Post(s)
Liked 2,150 Times in 1,206 Posts
Not keen on SunRace freewheels. Cheap plating.

-Kurt
__________________







cudak888 is offline  
Old 02-21-11, 03:09 PM
  #5  
ColonelJLloyd 
Senior Member
 
ColonelJLloyd's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Louisville
Posts: 8,382
Mentioned: 18 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 110 Post(s)
Liked 9 Times in 8 Posts
Originally Posted by cudak888 View Post
Not keen on SunRace freewheels. Cheap plating.

-Kurt
Well, cheap plating/cheap price. I haven't used one, but I know others who have been pleased. Plating wouldn't be a deal breaker for me. It's not integral to the performance and it's a consumable part.
__________________
Bikes on Flickr
I prefer email to private messages. You can contact me at justinhughes@me.com
ColonelJLloyd is offline  
Old 02-21-11, 03:38 PM
  #6  
Grand Bois
Senior Member
 
Grand Bois's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Pinole, CA, USA
Posts: 17,415
Mentioned: 24 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 441 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 13 Times in 13 Posts
I tried the NR with Rally cage for a while and I couldn't live with it. I should point out that I never liked the way the NR shifted with the short cage. I don't like readjusting after every shift. I replaced it with a Suntour Vx GT and It shifts great. I'd like to try a second generation Rally, but I keep losing auctions. I'm using Suntor Barcons and a Shimano Uniglide 5 speed 14 X 28 freewheel.
Grand Bois is offline  
Old 02-21-11, 03:53 PM
  #7  
Wisco 
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 139
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 1 Time in 1 Post
There's also a stock NR long cage version...
Wisco is offline  
Old 02-21-11, 04:29 PM
  #8  
LeicaLad 
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Work in Asia, now based in Vienna, VA
Posts: 1,751
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 52 Post(s)
Liked 19 Times in 15 Posts
+1 on the freewheel choice.

I use a 1st Gen Rally and love it almost entirely because I went to a Shimano HG freewheel. Wow! What a difference that makes.
__________________
1959 Hilton Wrigley Connoisseur (still my favorite!)
1963 Hetchins Mountain King (the gravel grinder)
1971 Gitane Tour de France (The War Horse) (1 owner)
* 1971 Gitane Super Corsa (The Garage Queen) (crashed out)
1971 Gitane Super Corsa #2 (sweet replacement frame)
1980 Ritchey Touring (The Grail Bike)
1984 Tom Ritchey Team Competition (NOS show bike)
(replacing the stolen 1981 Tom Ritchey Everest custom)
1985 ALAN Record (Glued & Screwed. A gift.)

LeicaLad is offline  
Old 02-21-11, 04:42 PM
  #9  
cudak888 
www.theheadbadge.com
 
cudak888's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Southern Florida
Posts: 26,901

Bikes: https://www.theheadbadge.com

Mentioned: 83 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1680 Post(s)
Liked 2,150 Times in 1,206 Posts
Originally Posted by Wisco View Post
There's also a stock NR long cage version...
The Rally 2nd-gen, right?

-Kurt
__________________







cudak888 is offline  
Old 02-21-11, 04:49 PM
  #10  
Grand Bois
Senior Member
 
Grand Bois's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Pinole, CA, USA
Posts: 17,415
Mentioned: 24 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 441 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 13 Times in 13 Posts
I meant to say that I want to try a first generation Rally. I almost got someone to trade his for my NR with Rally cage, but he changed his mind.

There was never a long cage NR. The second generation Rally is similar, but it's no NR.
Grand Bois is offline  
Old 02-21-11, 04:52 PM
  #11  
-holiday76
No one cares
Thread Starter
 
-holiday76's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Yardley, Pa
Posts: 6,141
Mentioned: 38 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 222 Post(s)
Liked 67 Times in 51 Posts
The freewheel mighthelp with shifting, but since i don't even have a chain on te bike yet it has nothing to do with the issues I've observed that I was talking about in my post.
__________________
I prefer emails to private messages - holiday76@gmail.com
Jack Taylor Super Tourer Tandem (FOR SALE), Jack Taylor Tour of Britain, Px-10, Carlton Flyer, Fuji The Finest, Salsa Fargo, Santa Cruz Tallboy, Carver All-Road .


-holiday76 is offline  
Old 02-21-11, 05:00 PM
  #12  
ScottRyder 
Photographer
 
ScottRyder's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: The other Cape, Cape Ann
Posts: 3,155
Mentioned: 26 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 103 Post(s)
Liked 95 Times in 51 Posts
Originally Posted by Grand Bois View Post
I meant to say that I want to try a first generation Rally. I almost got someone to trade his for my NR with Rally cage, but he changed his mind.

There was never a long cage NR. The second generation Rally is similar, but it's no NR.
Would this be a Rally with a NR nameplate? It always leads to some head scratching .. It's on my '70's Mirella.



Scott
__________________
ClassicFuji.posthaven.com.archive

IG @scottryder.surf.cycle
IG @scottryder.fine.art
























ScottRyder is offline  
Old 02-21-11, 05:17 PM
  #13  
Picchio Special
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Lancaster County, PA
Posts: 5,060

Bikes: '39 Hobbs, '58 Marastoni, '73 Italian custom, '75 Wizard, '76 Wilier, '78 Tom Kellogg, '79 Colnago Super, '79 Sachs, '81 Masi Prestige, '82 Cuevas, '83 Picchio Special, '84 Murray-Serotta, '85 Trek 170, '89 Bianchi, '90 Bill Holland, '94 Grandis

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 5 Times in 5 Posts
Originally Posted by Grand Bois View Post
There was never a long cage NR. The second generation Rally is similar, but it's no NR.
Yes. Spence Wolf did a fairly famous mod to create a long-cage NR derailleur, which he sold on many of the bikes that came out of his Cupertino Bike Shop. Given the hilly terrain experienced by many of the riders who bought bikes from Spence, the modified long-cage NR made sense - Spence was an advocate of TA triples as well. The combination appeared on a number of bikes with racing-style frames (i.e. Cinelli SC's).
Picchio Special is offline  
Old 02-21-11, 05:24 PM
  #14  
ColonelJLloyd 
Senior Member
 
ColonelJLloyd's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Louisville
Posts: 8,382
Mentioned: 18 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 110 Post(s)
Liked 9 Times in 8 Posts
Originally Posted by -holiday76 View Post
The freewheel mighthelp with shifting, but since i don't even have a chain on te bike yet it has nothing to do with the issues I've observed that I was talking about in my post.
Gotcha. Well, I would definitely use modern housing if it suits the bike. I have no experience with Campagnolo bar ends, but I gather they are not as well regarded as Suntour, Shimano or even Simplex bar end shifters. I ordered two sets of pods that should arrive relatively soon. I'm going to convert a pair of Retrofrictions to bar ends. I'd think you could use the pods to mount just about any period correct shifter you want.

The RD is going to perform differently with a chain on the bike versus without, right? Perhaps the chain tension will smooth out the effects of the cable pull to which you're referring.
__________________
Bikes on Flickr
I prefer email to private messages. You can contact me at justinhughes@me.com
ColonelJLloyd is offline  
Old 02-21-11, 05:29 PM
  #15  
Grand Bois
Senior Member
 
Grand Bois's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Pinole, CA, USA
Posts: 17,415
Mentioned: 24 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 441 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 13 Times in 13 Posts
It's pretty, but it sucks. I'm sure that lots of lots of people made this modification. It was much easier to do when you could order Rally cages from Campagnolo.

Grand Bois is offline  
Old 02-21-11, 05:36 PM
  #16  
Picchio Special
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Lancaster County, PA
Posts: 5,060

Bikes: '39 Hobbs, '58 Marastoni, '73 Italian custom, '75 Wizard, '76 Wilier, '78 Tom Kellogg, '79 Colnago Super, '79 Sachs, '81 Masi Prestige, '82 Cuevas, '83 Picchio Special, '84 Murray-Serotta, '85 Trek 170, '89 Bianchi, '90 Bill Holland, '94 Grandis

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 5 Times in 5 Posts
Originally Posted by Grand Bois View Post
I'm sure that lots of lots of people made this modification.
A couple of examples of "home cooking" on this page:

https://www.hetchins.org/campa-01.htm
Picchio Special is offline  
Old 02-21-11, 06:21 PM
  #17  
-holiday76
No one cares
Thread Starter
 
-holiday76's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Yardley, Pa
Posts: 6,141
Mentioned: 38 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 222 Post(s)
Liked 67 Times in 51 Posts
this is great:




i do think the campy bar ends are part of the problem. I've never used those before either but the only cool thing about them seems to be the name campagnolo. Maybe I'll try the simplex one I have as well.

I think I might have an HG freewheel I can throw on too.

I guess there really are not a lot of good touring mech's that would be period correct to 1968.
__________________
I prefer emails to private messages - holiday76@gmail.com
Jack Taylor Super Tourer Tandem (FOR SALE), Jack Taylor Tour of Britain, Px-10, Carlton Flyer, Fuji The Finest, Salsa Fargo, Santa Cruz Tallboy, Carver All-Road .


-holiday76 is offline  
Old 02-21-11, 06:50 PM
  #18  
fender1
Senior Member
 
fender1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Berwyn PA
Posts: 6,190

Bikes: I hate bikes!

Mentioned: 36 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 336 Post(s)
Liked 299 Times in 98 Posts
Brian,

I have a 1987 Shimano freewheel (twist tooth) that is spotless, lubed and ready to go. It is 14-32. If you need it let me know.
fender1 is offline  
Old 02-21-11, 06:54 PM
  #19  
noglider 
aka Tom Reingold
 
noglider's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: New York, NY, USA
Posts: 40,146

Bikes: 1962 Rudge Sports, 1971 Raleigh Super Course, 1971 Raleigh Pro Track, 1974 Raleigh International, 1975 Viscount Fixie, 1982 McLean, 1996 Lemond (Ti), 2002 Burley Zydeco tandem

Mentioned: 493 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6996 Post(s)
Liked 1,725 Times in 1,073 Posts
Grand Bois, I have a first generation Rally. Like other Campy derailleurs, it will survive a nuclear holocaust, but it doesn't shift fantastically.
__________________
Tom Reingold, tom@noglider.com
New York City and High Falls, NY
Blogs: The Experienced Cyclist; noglider's ride blog

“When man invented the bicycle he reached the peak of his attainments.” — Elizabeth West, US author

Please email me rather than PM'ing me. Thanks.
noglider is offline  
Old 02-21-11, 07:39 PM
  #20  
Grand Bois
Senior Member
 
Grand Bois's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Pinole, CA, USA
Posts: 17,415
Mentioned: 24 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 441 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 13 Times in 13 Posts
Originally Posted by noglider View Post
Grand Bois, I have a first generation Rally. Like other Campy derailleurs, it will survive a nuclear holocaust, but it doesn't shift fantastically.
I just love the way they look. I don't think Campy made a decent shifting derailer until they swallowed their pride and adopted Suntour's slant parallelogram design.

Simplex bar end shifters are as bad as or even worse than Campy bar end shifters unless they are the retrofrictions and those are very rare.
Grand Bois is offline  
Old 02-21-11, 08:12 PM
  #21  
Picchio Special
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Lancaster County, PA
Posts: 5,060

Bikes: '39 Hobbs, '58 Marastoni, '73 Italian custom, '75 Wizard, '76 Wilier, '78 Tom Kellogg, '79 Colnago Super, '79 Sachs, '81 Masi Prestige, '82 Cuevas, '83 Picchio Special, '84 Murray-Serotta, '85 Trek 170, '89 Bianchi, '90 Bill Holland, '94 Grandis

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 5 Times in 5 Posts
Originally Posted by Grand Bois View Post
I don't think Campy made a decent shifting derailer until they swallowed their pride and adopted Suntour's slant parallelogram design.
The original Gran Sport was a definite step forward, and a very fine derailleur for its time.
Picchio Special is offline  
Old 02-21-11, 11:18 PM
  #22  
-holiday76
No one cares
Thread Starter
 
-holiday76's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Yardley, Pa
Posts: 6,141
Mentioned: 38 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 222 Post(s)
Liked 67 Times in 51 Posts
well I took a closer look at what I thought was a rally that I'm using, and it turns out its not even a rally. At least I don't think it is. I'd looks exactly like a nr with a longer cage. I'll post more pics later after I'm done with the bike, but it seems I wasnt even doing the comparison I thought I was. I also think the campy bar ends suck compared to the suntour ones...
__________________
I prefer emails to private messages - holiday76@gmail.com
Jack Taylor Super Tourer Tandem (FOR SALE), Jack Taylor Tour of Britain, Px-10, Carlton Flyer, Fuji The Finest, Salsa Fargo, Santa Cruz Tallboy, Carver All-Road .


-holiday76 is offline  
Old 02-22-11, 06:58 AM
  #23  
cudak888 
www.theheadbadge.com
 
cudak888's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Southern Florida
Posts: 26,901

Bikes: https://www.theheadbadge.com

Mentioned: 83 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1680 Post(s)
Liked 2,150 Times in 1,206 Posts
Originally Posted by -holiday76 View Post
well I took a closer look at what I thought was a rally that I'm using, and it turns out its not even a rally. At least I don't think it is. I'd looks exactly like a nr with a longer cage. I'll post more pics later after I'm done with the bike, but it seems I wasnt even doing the comparison I thought I was. I also think the campy bar ends suck compared to the suntour ones...
Post a photo of the two RD's in question.

-Kurt
__________________







cudak888 is offline  
Old 02-22-11, 09:57 AM
  #24  
stronglight
Old Skeptic
 
stronglight's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: New Mexico, USA
Posts: 1,044

Bikes: 19 road bikes & 1 Track bike

Mentioned: 7 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 5 Times in 5 Posts
The later (1982) Rally was essentially a Nuovo Gran Sport (the cheaper 1980s model) with a long pulley cage added. I was told that Campy may have (ahem) "overlooked" some Shimano copyrights when they produced the first version of the Rally in 1974. Beyond the cosmetics it is virtually identical to a Shimano Crane-GS or Titlist-GS. My first generation Rally shifts as well as almost any wide range derailleur of it's day - naturally, including the top-end Shimano Crane-GS.

I suspect Campagnolo just finally relented and made the later long pulley cage model as a hasty afterthought and it was really a step backward to what was still a 1950s derailleur design. Tulio always hated Touring and Recreational cycling, anyway.

I always hated the way Campy NR derailleurs shifted. I'm afraid that adding a longer pulley cage will not remedy the issues resulting from the basic design. But, if you don't weary of a continual shift-trim-shift-trim routine, the long cage conversion will enable use of larger cogs.

But, beyond my quibbling over derailleur designs...

I think that switching to a more modern freewheel should help (somewhat). During the 1970s Suntour had experimented with chisel-top teeth and then Shimano eventually stumbled onto the "trick" of the twist-tooth design to help move the chain over. But it was really the profiled (Hyper-Glide) cogs which finally perfected everything. That is the feature which enables a chain to span across one cog before it is completely dropped off the other. That speeds up shifting response (and its absolutely critical for STI/ERGO indexed shifting). And this is why ALL manufacturers now still copy that on cassette cogs today - 20 years later!

This same shifting assistance just might also help an old Campy derailleur to catch a new cog with less movement of the pulley cage (and maybe less residual trim-back). So, to make a big difference in the performance of any older derailleur, my vote would be to make that quantum leap and just buy a cheap modern HG-style freewheel.

...and a modern 8-speed chain, too.
stronglight is offline  
Old 02-22-11, 10:30 AM
  #25  
dbakl
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 5,770

Bikes: Cinelli, Paramount, Raleigh, Carlton, Zeus, Gemniani, Frejus, Legnano, Pinarello, Falcon

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 12 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 4 Times in 4 Posts
Originally Posted by Grand Bois View Post
I meant to say that I want to try a first generation Rally. I almost got someone to trade his for my NR with Rally cage, but he changed his mind.

There was never a long cage NR. The second generation Rally is similar, but it's no NR.
Sorry for that! No, the second is pretty much a NR except the front plate, bolts and long cage. I've been really happy with mine, though I must admit I've only used NR the last 40 years, so it feels totally familar to me.

The Japanse stuff is great, but just has no mojo for me. I only use Suntour freewheels from ebay. Cheap, available and bulletproof.

Originally Posted by -holiday76 View Post
well I took a closer look at what I thought was a rally that I'm using, and it turns out its not even a rally. At least I don't think it is. I'd looks exactly like a nr with a longer cage. I'll post more pics later after I'm done with the bike, but it seems I wasnt even doing the comparison I thought I was. I also think the campy bar ends suck compared to the suntour ones...
The NR would say Nuovo Record on the front cage plate, and the Rally, well, Rally.

BTW, I tried the 1st generation on my Carlton, no way will it hande the range of the 2nd.

Originally Posted by Scottryder View Post
Would this be a Rally with a NR nameplate? It always leads to some head scratching .. It's on my '70's Mirella.
That's funny. In the olden days you could buy any pieces of Campagnolo components for repairs, so anything is possible! Or maybe someone on the line having a windup!

Last edited by dbakl; 02-22-11 at 10:38 AM.
dbakl is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service - Do Not Sell My Personal Information -

Copyright © 2021 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.