Go Back  Bike Forums > Bike Forums > Classic & Vintage
Reload this Page >

1972 Eddy Merckx

Notices
Classic & Vintage This forum is to discuss the many aspects of classic and vintage bicycles, including musclebikes, lightweights, middleweights, hi-wheelers, bone-shakers, safety bikes and much more.

1972 Eddy Merckx

Old 03-22-11, 12:58 PM
  #26  
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Lancaster County, PA
Posts: 5,045

Bikes: '39 Hobbs, '58 Marastoni, '73 Italian custom, '75 Wizard, '76 Wilier, '78 Tom Kellogg, '79 Colnago Super, '79 Sachs, '81 Masi Prestige, '82 Cuevas, '83 Picchio Special, '84 Murray-Serotta, '85 Trek 170, '89 Bianchi, '90 Bill Holland, '94 Grandis

Likes: 0
Liked 12 Times in 10 Posts
Originally Posted by vjp
Kessels had two large round holes in the BB shell and DeRosa have a heart shaped cut out.
This is incorrect - only some 70's De Rosas have heart-shaped cutouts. Many have slots.
Picchio Special is offline  
Old 03-22-11, 01:08 PM
  #27  
Junior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 11
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
some more pics.

heart shaped cutout on lugs. De rosa?

Attached Images
File Type: jpg
DSC_0451.jpg (50.2 KB, 99 views)
File Type: jpg
DSC_0449.jpg (70.4 KB, 93 views)
File Type: jpg
DSC_0450.jpg (61.7 KB, 94 views)
File Type: jpg
DSC_0452.jpg (56.2 KB, 87 views)
paulinho is offline  
Old 03-22-11, 01:11 PM
  #28  
Junior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 11
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts


sorry... lugs here!
Attached Images
File Type: jpg
DSC_0022-1.jpg (65.7 KB, 137 views)
paulinho is offline  
Old 03-22-11, 01:11 PM
  #29  
Stop reading my posts!
 
unworthy1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 12,760
Liked 1,189 Times in 872 Posts
Originally Posted by Picchio Special
This is more clear - thanks. But I'm not aware that there's any controversary as to whether Colnago (the maker) built some of Eddy's frames - that's pretty certain, IMO.
Yes, that's not a controversy with anybody, AFAIK...it's clear to me that my writing lacks clarity: I only get how it can be misconstrued after somebody does just that. I'm going to have to work on that
unworthy1 is offline  
Old 03-22-11, 01:12 PM
  #30  
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Lancaster County, PA
Posts: 5,045

Bikes: '39 Hobbs, '58 Marastoni, '73 Italian custom, '75 Wizard, '76 Wilier, '78 Tom Kellogg, '79 Colnago Super, '79 Sachs, '81 Masi Prestige, '82 Cuevas, '83 Picchio Special, '84 Murray-Serotta, '85 Trek 170, '89 Bianchi, '90 Bill Holland, '94 Grandis

Likes: 0
Liked 12 Times in 10 Posts
Take some more pics of the frame details. Heart shaped cutouts could be convincing, but I'm sceptical of the BB shell with no perforation(s).
Picchio Special is offline  
Old 03-22-11, 01:15 PM
  #31  
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Bristol, British Isles
Posts: 131
Likes: 0
Liked 2 Times in 2 Posts
What is the wording on the seat tube bands? I think this one of the frames produced by the Italian licensee of the Merckx name - I think it was something like Velosport Bologna...
Hilarystone is offline  
Old 03-22-11, 01:17 PM
  #32  
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Lancaster County, PA
Posts: 5,045

Bikes: '39 Hobbs, '58 Marastoni, '73 Italian custom, '75 Wizard, '76 Wilier, '78 Tom Kellogg, '79 Colnago Super, '79 Sachs, '81 Masi Prestige, '82 Cuevas, '83 Picchio Special, '84 Murray-Serotta, '85 Trek 170, '89 Bianchi, '90 Bill Holland, '94 Grandis

Likes: 0
Liked 12 Times in 10 Posts
Originally Posted by unworthy1
Yes, that's not a controversy with anybody, AFAIK...it's clear to me that my writing lacks clarity: I only get how it can be misconstrued after somebody does just that. I'm going to have to work on that
Sorry.
And I probably overstated the case for De Rosa building some of the early Merckx production (or at least show) bikes. But I think the evidence is increasingly convincing on that score. Hilary Stone has had a few enlightening examples, and the blue one on his wool jersey site is pretty convincing for someone who's looked at a lot of De Rosas (and owned a similar one) - the whole build and details just shout De Rosa to me. I doubt the Merckx setup would have produced something quite that much of a dead ringer, even using frame parts supplied by De Rosa. I'm sure I'm not the only one to think that, but I agree it's not a certainty at this point.
Picchio Special is offline  
Old 03-22-11, 01:19 PM
  #33  
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Lancaster County, PA
Posts: 5,045

Bikes: '39 Hobbs, '58 Marastoni, '73 Italian custom, '75 Wizard, '76 Wilier, '78 Tom Kellogg, '79 Colnago Super, '79 Sachs, '81 Masi Prestige, '82 Cuevas, '83 Picchio Special, '84 Murray-Serotta, '85 Trek 170, '89 Bianchi, '90 Bill Holland, '94 Grandis

Likes: 0
Liked 12 Times in 10 Posts
Originally Posted by paulinho


sorry... lugs here!
That's not the typical De Rosa heart - it's a cutout shape seen on quite a few bikes (and fooled a few people into thinking "De Rosa").
Pretty sure that didn't come from Ugo's shop.

Last edited by Picchio Special; 03-22-11 at 01:22 PM.
Picchio Special is offline  
Old 03-22-11, 01:21 PM
  #34  
Stop reading my posts!
 
unworthy1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 12,760
Liked 1,189 Times in 872 Posts
Yeah I saw "Velosport" and could only think of the shop in Berkeley, CA (which would not be a useful clue). Didn't know there was yet another licensee (in Italy, no less) that made Merckx frames. This Velosport, Bologna: any connection to DeRosa?
unworthy1 is offline  
Old 03-22-11, 01:34 PM
  #35  
vjp
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 2,162
Likes: 0
Liked 3 Times in 3 Posts
I believe that Hilary nailed it!

There are a few mentions in the CR archives, Velosport Bologna, licensed for sale in Italy only, someone also questions whether they were made by DeRosa.
vjp is offline  
Old 03-22-11, 01:41 PM
  #36  
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Lancaster County, PA
Posts: 5,045

Bikes: '39 Hobbs, '58 Marastoni, '73 Italian custom, '75 Wizard, '76 Wilier, '78 Tom Kellogg, '79 Colnago Super, '79 Sachs, '81 Masi Prestige, '82 Cuevas, '83 Picchio Special, '84 Murray-Serotta, '85 Trek 170, '89 Bianchi, '90 Bill Holland, '94 Grandis

Likes: 0
Liked 12 Times in 10 Posts
It's a middling frame, as evidenced by the components (and what you can see of the frame details and general build quality), and certainly not built by De Rosa.
Picchio Special is offline  
Old 03-22-11, 01:57 PM
  #37  
vjp
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 2,162
Likes: 0
Liked 3 Times in 3 Posts
Originally Posted by Picchio Special
It's a middling frame, as evidenced by the components (and what you can see of the frame details and general build quality), and certainly not built by De Rosa.
I will agree with the "not", and with the components, I am not sure about the "middling" part though. If that is a weird indent on the side of the DT lug and not my monitor playing tricks, I will agree across the board with you!
vjp is offline  
Old 03-22-11, 02:02 PM
  #38  
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Lancaster County, PA
Posts: 5,045

Bikes: '39 Hobbs, '58 Marastoni, '73 Italian custom, '75 Wizard, '76 Wilier, '78 Tom Kellogg, '79 Colnago Super, '79 Sachs, '81 Masi Prestige, '82 Cuevas, '83 Picchio Special, '84 Murray-Serotta, '85 Trek 170, '89 Bianchi, '90 Bill Holland, '94 Grandis

Likes: 0
Liked 12 Times in 10 Posts
Originally Posted by vjp
If that is a weird indent on the side of the DT lug and not my monitor playing tricks, I will agree across the board with you!
That's kind of where "middling" came to mind - as I followed the contour of that lug.
Picchio Special is offline  
Old 03-22-11, 02:12 PM
  #39  
vjp
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 2,162
Likes: 0
Liked 3 Times in 3 Posts
Originally Posted by Picchio Special
That's kind of where "middling" came to mind - as I followed the contour of that lug.
"Case adjourned"
vjp is offline  
Old 03-22-11, 02:16 PM
  #40  
Junior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 11
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
thanks for the input - it is a trick of the light with the indent on the lug, it does follow the contour.

Could I ask you to give a ball park figure for this bike? Any guide would be good.
paulinho is offline  
Old 03-22-11, 02:17 PM
  #41  
Stop reading my posts!
 
unworthy1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 12,760
Liked 1,189 Times in 872 Posts
I read what there is on "Velosport Bologna" in the CR archives and according to Listmaster Dale, if yours has Gipiemme dropouts it's likely from mid-to-late '70s.
Another owner of one of these "export prohibited" Italian-market-only bikes says his has no tubing decal...so I wonder if the foil Columbus decal is real or a wanna-be.
As far as price: the only 'for sale' was in 2004 for a frame/fork with HS and BB plus shifters in good/fair condition (original paint and decals): $125.

Last edited by unworthy1; 03-22-11 at 02:21 PM.
unworthy1 is offline  
Old 03-22-11, 02:21 PM
  #42  
Junior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 11
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
front and rear dropouts are campagnolo
paulinho is offline  
Old 03-22-11, 03:30 PM
  #43  
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Lancaster County, PA
Posts: 5,045

Bikes: '39 Hobbs, '58 Marastoni, '73 Italian custom, '75 Wizard, '76 Wilier, '78 Tom Kellogg, '79 Colnago Super, '79 Sachs, '81 Masi Prestige, '82 Cuevas, '83 Picchio Special, '84 Murray-Serotta, '85 Trek 170, '89 Bianchi, '90 Bill Holland, '94 Grandis

Likes: 0
Liked 12 Times in 10 Posts
Originally Posted by paulinho
thanks for the input - it is a trick of the light with the indent on the lug, it does follow the contour.
That's a relief. I still believe it to be a mid-level rather than top-level frame.
Picchio Special is offline  
Old 03-22-11, 04:48 PM
  #44  
Senior Member
 
bobbycorno's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 2,454
Likes: 0
Liked 6 Times in 6 Posts
Originally Posted by Picchio Special
That's a relief. I still believe it to be a mid-level rather than top-level frame.
I'm assuming you mean mid-level as in "mass produced", not mid-level as in "mediocre tubing, etc", since it appears to be Columbus SL. I'd call it a "high-end production" frame (vs hand-made), but we're starting to split hairs now.

SP
Bend, OR
bobbycorno is offline  
Old 03-22-11, 05:13 PM
  #45  
vjp
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 2,162
Likes: 0
Liked 3 Times in 3 Posts
Just to really "split hairs", "high-end production" IS hand made. You don't throw tubes and lugs in a hopper and a bike comes out the other end.

Originally Posted by bobbycorno
I'm assuming you mean mid-level as in "mass produced", not mid-level as in "mediocre tubing, etc", since it appears to be Columbus SL. I'd call it a "high-end production" frame (vs hand-made), but we're starting to split hairs now.

SP
Bend, OR
vjp is offline  
Old 03-22-11, 05:26 PM
  #46  
Senior Member
 
bobbycorno's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 2,454
Likes: 0
Liked 6 Times in 6 Posts
Originally Posted by vjp
Just to really "split hairs", "high-end production" IS hand made. You don't throw tubes and lugs in a hopper and a bike comes out the other end.
Then shall we say "high-end mass-produced" vs "boutique builder"? Trying to distinguish between, say, De Rosa and Billato, for instance.

SP
Bend, OR
bobbycorno is offline  
Old 03-22-11, 05:47 PM
  #47  
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Lancaster County, PA
Posts: 5,045

Bikes: '39 Hobbs, '58 Marastoni, '73 Italian custom, '75 Wizard, '76 Wilier, '78 Tom Kellogg, '79 Colnago Super, '79 Sachs, '81 Masi Prestige, '82 Cuevas, '83 Picchio Special, '84 Murray-Serotta, '85 Trek 170, '89 Bianchi, '90 Bill Holland, '94 Grandis

Likes: 0
Liked 12 Times in 10 Posts
Originally Posted by bobbycorno
I'm assuming you mean mid-level as in "mass produced", not mid-level as in "mediocre tubing, etc", since it appears to be Columbus SL. I'd call it a "high-end production" frame (vs hand-made), but we're starting to split hairs now.

SP
Bend, OR
I'd want to see more details before doing too much hair-splitting. Let's just say the difference in quality between the frame in the OP and, say, a Pinarello or Tommasini of the same era (much less a Masi or De Rosa) would be fairly evident. I've seen many, many frame I would characterize as "mid-level" in terms of overall build quality and attention to detail that were made with SL or 531. In this case, we don't even know if it was made with "SL," since that's the "catch-all" Columbus decal for the 70's - could just as well be the equivalent of SP. I'm going by what I can see of the frame, the componentry, and my sense of the vast majority of frames named after top riders - which were nearly always much more about cashing in on the fame of the rider than on providing a genuinely top-notch product. There are exceptions when it comes to this type of licensing, but they're pretty rare. If there was some kind of whispering about truly top notch "Eddy Merckx" frames coming out of Velosport in Bologna, I suspect it would have more resonance by now, like the 3Rensho Allez from Specialized.
But bottom line: in my world, that's a mid-level frame and bike.
Picchio Special is offline  
Old 03-22-11, 07:32 PM
  #48  
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 2,754
Likes: 0
Liked 14 Times in 12 Posts
Originally Posted by bobbycorno
Then shall we say "high-end mass-produced" vs "boutique builder"? Trying to distinguish between, say, De Rosa and Billato, for instance.

SP
Bend, OR
For lugged steel frames. The difference is in the filing. The amount of it, and the shaping and proportions. It really does not matter if a frame is built by a single man or a production shop. Both are usually capable of fine work if that is the desired outcome, and both can (will) cut corners if that is what's called for. And there's always "good days and bad days".

Too many people do not see past names and legends, you need to look at the work.
Otis is offline  
Old 03-22-11, 11:33 PM
  #49  
Senior Member
 
rothenfield1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Montereyish
Posts: 2,306
Likes: 0
Liked 3 Times in 3 Posts
Originally Posted by Otis
For lugged steel frames. The difference is in the filing. The amount of it, and the shaping and proportions. It really does not matter if a frame is built by a single man or a production shop. Both are usually capable of fine work if that is the desired outcome, and both can (will) cut corners if that is what's called for. And there's always "good days and bad days".

Too many people do not see past names and legends, you need to look at the work.
This makes more sense to me than much of this post. Spoken like a frame builder I'm suspecting. Unfortunately, most of us aren't. And the trouble is this part:"you need to look at the work." I think there is a very small collective of people around the world that could look at "the work" and determine what a good day and a bad day was. This is why this Forum is important. If you want to preserve the value of these bikes, someone needs to keep edifying people like moi.
rothenfield1 is offline  
Old 03-23-11, 04:25 AM
  #50  
Junior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 11
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Originally Posted by Hilarystone
What is the wording on the seat tube bands? I think this one of the frames produced by the Italian licensee of the Merckx name - I think it was something like Velosport Bologna...

I can confirm that it does say VELOSPORT - BOLOGNA VIETATA L'ESPORTAZIONE.
paulinho is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service - Your Privacy Choices -

Copyright © 2024 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.