Raleigh question...
 

A guy who owns a vintage bike shop in a town 3 hours from me has a beautiful late 80s Raleigh Gran Prix for sale. It says "Raleigh 555) on a sticker on the lower part of the frame. When I questioned him about the frame he said "English made Gran Prixs were Raleigh's entry level road bike and were made of of high tensile steel. Raleigh sold to an american corporation in the late 80s that produced their own in house cromoly tube sets mainly 502 and 555sl which are often mistaken as some sort of reynolds magmoly tubing which they are not. This Gran Prix is an American made model made with the before mentioned cromoly tubing."

A friend who has been mentoring me wrote me and said "The Gran Prix is a Raleigh "Bicycle Corp. of America" era. Not near the bike that the Carlton frrames are."

My question is... what makes the difference(s) between the American era and the Carlton era in quality? Any input will help me learn more and hopefully keep me from making a mistake. I'm a newbie and in the hunt for a vintage steel bike that I'll enjoy for a long time to come.

Thanks,

Gary

It is a good, solid frame. I have a 555SL Super Course. Not incredibly light, but not too heavy either. I think the bike (which has a 25" frame) weighs about 25 lb. Let me find the post... I think Raleigh 555 is thought to be relabeled Reynolds 501.

EDIT: Here it is, from earlier this week. I linked to a post from an earlier thread.

They're good mid level Taiwan made bikes. Decent components, fairly light. I bought mine new and it has given me many years of good service. FWIW the frame is all chromed under the paint on many of these.

That's interesting information about the "Raleigh" tubing. There's been a ton of speculation about its origin, and that actually makes sense. However, I don't recall anyone saying that "555SL" is "mangmoly," since it specifically states on the decal that it's cro-moly," and most of the speculation has been that the tubing is Japanese (Tange or Ishiwata). On the other hand, the decal for 555RSL does state that it's mang-moly," and that's where the Reynolds speculation has centered. It does seem a little surprising that Raleigh Corporation of America would have felt the need or discerned an advantage in producing tubesets in-house.

As to the assertion that the Raleigh Bicycle Corporation of America frames are vastly inferior to the Carlton produced ones, I think that's pretty overstated, and I'd be interested to here why the writer thinks that. Carlton made some very good frames, but the workmanship was all over the map. Differences in ride quality would stem largely from frame getting the tubing gauges and geometries right for the frame sizes. I would personally look at the individual bike, the size and the functionality of the components, before buying into Carlton "mystique." Any differences in weight are very unlikely to be a big deal in terms of performance.

I realize this is merely anecdotal, but I have a few Raleighs that were made in Worksop (the Carlton facility), and have seen quite a few more. From what I have seen, frames on the lower end models are more likely to have blobs, gaps and such, than do top end frames.

True, but I was talking apples-to-apples, since the 502 and 555SL bikes the OP references are mid-level models.

I found this earlier this afternoon, posted by "Chuckk", a member here...

http://chuck.kichline.com/bikes/rgp/rgp.htm

The one I'm looking at looks JUST like this one... and I agree with Chuckk, it sure is a pretty bike! Here's the description from the owner of the one I'm looking at:

"Beautiful Raleigh Gran Prix. 60cm American made (Kent, Washington) lugged cromoly steel frame, with excellent red paint, and shiny brilliant chrome. Fully sloping fork crown. 12-Speed with Shimano drivetrain and Dia-Compe brakes. Bike comes refurbished which includes cleaning the frame, adjusting all bearing surfaces, true wheels, complete lube and tune. New cables and housing. New tires and tubes. New bar tape. Nice specialized saddle. This bike is tight , light and looks right."

I can probably get it for a few bucks under $300. Comparatively he's also offering a '73 Super Course with the same refurbishing that he's done to this Grand Prix... and is asking $320 for it.

I'm in a location where there ARE no vintage bikes around... so I'm going to have to drive 3 hours to look at these bikes and make a decision. The SC has a Suntour Cyclone drivetrain and Weinmann centerpull brakes and levers.

Thoughts? Preferences?

Thanks for the replies.

Gary

p.s. Oh, and then there is a '85 Trek 400 that is "cherry" that has been refurbished with new cables, lube, tuning, etc. that I can get for $250. It won't be ready until next week sometime (I can get either of the Raleighs tomorrow if I want)... should I wait on that one instead? Arrggghhhhh, I hate being a newbie!! :-)

Mine is Japan-made.

http://www.bikeforums.net/attachment...3&d=1301188802

Here are the specs for the 1985 Grand Prix:

http://sheldonbrown.com/retroraleigh...-grandprix.jpg

And the catalog page (Grand Prix is just above the framesets:

http://sheldonbrown.com/retroraleigh...5/images/1.jpg

Made me run out to the garage, my '84 is Taiwan. Similiar clear sticker under the tubing decal.

This 85 frame I flipped was also Taiwan

He's partially right.

A. The Nottingham/Holland Grand Prix models are high-tensile; produced in various forms since the early '60s; officially terminating production in 1982.
B. Super Grand Prix models were produced in both Nottingham and Japan.
C. "Raleigh USA" came about in 1983: Huffy bought the rights to manage the Raleigh brand name in America; which included the rights to source the "Raleigh USA" bikes from wherever they pleased. Frames were produced in Japan and Taiwan.
D. Derby took over the Raleigh USA brand name in 1987. The bonded-aluminum Raleigh Technium frames (new for 1987) ushered in the first "American" Raleighs, built in Kent, WA.

Your friend has his head in his proverbial behind. The work out of Worksop and Nottingham was all over the map for any one of their machines (exception to the Ilkston-made Team Professionals); high or low end. You could find good frames with good lugwork (rare), good frames with sloppy lugwork (about normal), bad frames with good-looking lugwork (very unusual), and bad frames with sloppy lugwork (they pop up from time to time). Want to see a tale of two Raleigh Internationals with drastically different build quality? Read the bottom of this page:

http://www.jaysmarine.com/raleighinternational.html

Not mentioned there is the story I heard of a shop mechanic who found a crack in the BB of a brand-new Pro.

What's more I've never seen a brand better represented on the internet for tubes pulling from their lugs for lack of proper brass penetration. Neal Lerner also reported a dropout that fell out from lack of brass; the original fork to a mid-1970's Super Course.

On the flip side, the upper-end Raleigh USA (Huffy era) frames - and even the mid and lower-range frames - from Taiwan and Japan always had neat shorelines, clean investment cast lugs (not that pressed lugs are bad, but the Nottingham folk had no intentions of finishing or filing them as intended), good brass penetration, and good ride qualities for what each are.

Nobody knows what 555SL, 555T, or 575SL tubing truly is. 555SL is seamed. Forks were generally made by Tange for Raleigh. We do know that 555RSL is Reynolds 531, and you'll only find that on the Team Pro replicas.

-Kurt

The Super Course, Raleigh Pursuit and Raleigh Technium are all good frames
 

I have 3 Raleighs...a 1977 Super Course...made by Carlton...a 1985 Raleigh Pursuit -made in England?- and a 1988 Raleigh Technium

I love all my bikes and have been on the Carlton the most...the other two being recent acquisitions and not completely set up to my liking for Philly commuting

Within a month both bikes will be perfectly setup

The Pursuit and Technium are definitely lighter than the Carlton but the Carlton Super Course has this intangible greatness when riding...I have a very large frame...not sure if its 63 or 64 cm...but I feel like a condor riding this bike...especially w/ the large Kabuki(sp) crank...pedaling is slow off the mark...but the high end is fantastic...and the bike holds the road like an ice skate on ice

All 3 frames have their own unique qualities...Pursuit is surprisingly light for a Chrome-Olly...certainly compared to my 78 Le Tour III Chrome Olly...and seems very solid

The Technium is light...I've read some reviews calling it heavy...I don't know what Technium they've rode but mine is the lightest bike I have...I've read that the bike incorporates Boeing Aluminum to Stainless Steel bonding technology...am curious to how well this frame will stand up to Philly...haven't heard of any of them breaking...

I think all 3 frames are fantastic...and serve any rider well

The rest...is just debate about the particulars

:notamused:

-Kurt

http://www.bikeforums.net/images/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by kaneandrew http://www.bikeforums.net/images/but...post-right.png
The rest...is just debate about the particulars
:notamused:

-Kurt

Hmmm...perhaps I was a bit brash w/ that statement...since...its ALL about particulars

Hard to argue with "intangible greatness," isn't it?