snarkypup

Okay, so I finally bought a new saddle for the Raleigh Sports: a dark brown Brooks B67. I can't believe how comfy and beautiful it is! I'm crazy about this bike, all over again. I'm going to also bite the bullet and lower the gearing slightly.

raleighpark by snarkypup, on Flickr

The only thing I'm not loving about it is the HORRIBLE braking power. My rear brake (and yes, those are salmon KoolStops) barely stops at all, even when properly adjusted. The front brake works, but I wouldn't trust it on a steep downhill. Any rain, dirt, or grease (and that NEVER happens on a SA hub-bearing steel rim) and neither brake stops me.

So, I need a new way to brake this bike. Here are the ideas I've heard suggested so far:

1. New aluminum rims, laced to the SA hub I already have. I know this will make the bike lighter, as well, but what will be the braking improvement? What is the (relative) cost of doing this? How easily can I find rims, and where can I get them? I'm NOT building these wheels myself.

2. A front disc brake with dyno-hub. The advantages here, from what I understand, are absolutely reliable front braking, plus dynohub. The disadvantages are: no rear brake improvement (and it's already so horrid), and more expense, correct? Especially when one adds in the light I will inevitably want as well.

So... which one? Is there another option I haven't thought of? What will be the relative cost difference between the two?

Shaneferd

It would be class action with a drum brake -speedhub & some textured aluminum hoops. Front brake is very crucial on a tandem, but that rear is the best control for a singleton. I reckon someone was just finding a hub like this, in the tip/skip or trash the other day.

Chicago Al 

Sun CR-18 rims in 26" is what you want, I think. Depending on the age of your Raleigh, you may have 32 hole front and 40 rear or 36 both--yours looks like the latter, but I'm not counting. Lickton Bike in Oak Park IL had a few on closeout when I was there some months back, really cheap, but I think only 32-hole. AE Bike in Michigan had very good prices on the rims in both hole counts. I am thinking seriously about this too. Daughter is getting a Centurion mixte, wife a Bob Jackson mixte (pics to come) but our green Ladies' Sports is too nice to let go, so I might as well go all out.

alr

I think that aluminum rims plus cool stop pads should stop just fine in the rain (though I have never tried this combo on a sports). In both of your scenarios, you would require a wheel build with purchase of either rims and hubs or both. I was going to be taking the wright brothers wheel building class this time around, but stupid surgery gets in the way, and so I can't lift anything or do anything too physical for a few weeks. In any case, If I finally do learn to build wheels reliably, I would be happy to help you. I think that this thread may convince you to try lacing your hubs to new Sun CR18 590 rims (I think costing about 30 bucks a piece).

I am also selling a new nutted axle 36 hole shimano front dynamo hub that I was going to use on my DL-1 wheel rebuild, but decided to go another route (drum with dyno). So you could consider this as well, if you want.

sillygolem

The vast majority of braking power comes from the front brake, so even going to a single (obviously mismatched) alloy rim on the front will help a lot. The drum/dyno combo has the benefit of letting you keep the shiny correct rims, plus since a drum/dyno combo is SA by default it would match the bike.

michael k

3. Straight up trade. https://portland.craigslist.org/mlt/bik/2301984748.html

snarkypup

I just counted: 32 spokes up front, 40 in the back. It's a '69, I think. The SA hub has no date, but the decals place it as a '69.

So what I'm hearing so far: aluminum rims are lighter, and cheaper, but is anyone positive they brake much better? Dyno-hub disc brake is a definite on braking power, but won't help for the speed control offered by a good rear brake, and it costs more. Right, so far? Anyone source out those rims lately?

And I gotta say, that bike just gets me every time I open this tread to check for responses. SO GORGEOUS with that saddle!!! <swoon>

It's soooo comfy compared to the battered old B17 that was on there, and I haven't even broken it in yet! I haven't even given it its first coat of Proofride or anything. Also, it's higher up on the springs, so I'm higher up too, and that changes the whole feel of the bike. The very wise young man at the Dutch Bike Co. rolled the bars slightly, as well, to change how I was sitting. It's like I have a completely different bicycle: I'm more upright, and have much more power going up hills as I'm getting full leg extension. The cheap leather grips are also more comfortable as I'm no longer riding with my hands out on the very ends of them. I'm just completely in love with this bike now.

With slightly lowered gears and good brakes... it would be my perfect bicycle, I think. Plus, being a Raleigh, it's freakin' beautiful! <heart flutters> The whole story of buying the saddle and a very nostalgic tour of my old neighborhood, where the shop selling the saddle was located, is up on rideblog: https://rideblog.wordpress.com/.

snarkypup

That is a beautiful Mixte! But you aren't tempting me. I'm too in love: I'm in that stage where I'm beyond all voluptuous new-comers for a while.

sailorbenjamin 

After perusing yer blog this evening, I think what you really need is that Pink Panther banana seat. Man, that's my new grail.
I wonder if forged alloy dual pivot calipers would help. I've got a box full if you want to try some.
Here's the rims you want for about $30+shipping;
https://www.niagaracycle.com/index.ph...04_123_378_563

Sixty Fiver

The stock wheels on the Sports are 650A which is 26 by 1 3/8 which is 590mm while a 26 inch mtb rim is smaller at 559 and are not interchangeable.

The improvement if you go from the chromed steel rims to some CR18's will be astounding and being that you live where you do, wet braking ability is a must have.

I ride a Phillip's 20 that has been super modified and after switching to alloy wheels my braking was still poor because of the weak stock brakes (the steel brakes on your Raleigh are much better) and despite using Kool Stops and then I brazed on canti / v brake mounts and with cantis the braking got much better but I still wanted more so I installed V brakes and now I can do mad skids.

This stopping power would not be possible with steel wheels.

A cool idea would be to lave a new CR18 to the rear hub and perhaps lace a new Sturmey Archer drum hub to the front or get a generator hub and lace that to a CR18 so that you can power a headlight.

The 40 rear and 32 spoke front is typical of Raleighs of this era and they moved to a 36/36 lacing in the seventies

If you drop a 20 or 22 tooth cog in the back your gearing issues will be addressed in that you will have a low that will get you some steeper hills at the cost of a top gear which was always set too high on these bicycles anyways.

Who wants to hurry when you are riding such a beautiful old bike ?

I build wheels for a living but live too far away to help... you should be able to find a reputable and experienced wheel builder who can lace new rims to your stock hubs and the front hub on the Raleigh is spaced at 95mm which means modern 100mm hubs will not fit unless you adjust the fork blades and machine the dropouts slightly for what will be a wider axle.

Invest in some decent stainless spokes as these will make you happier in the long run and will really make the bike sparkle for years to come.

If you go the route of getting the CR18's and new spokes and have these wheels built around your existing hubs you are looking at $180.00 - $200.00 for the parts and build fee which is not bad when you consider the value of having such nice hand built wheels.

Sixty Fiver

With new wheels and with what you have already done to the bike in the way of the new saddle and tyres you will have a bike that can't be had anywhere... modern versions of the classic 3 speed cost well over $600.00 and they do not say "Raleigh".

And 50 years from now that Raleigh will probably still be working while many of these modern bikes will have found their way to the recycler.

alr

I know some of this depends on the brake itself, but you *have* experienced other bicycles with alloy rims that can stop in the rain... I do believe that you would get similar performance with your Sports' brake + alloy rims. If you also wish to get dynamo lighting as well, I can hook you up, but that would mean getting a 36 hole front rim rather than a 32.

snarkypup

Hmm... I'm thinking the new rims are the way to go. The bike shop I was at suggested they could do the dyno-hub front wheel for $200 including the hub itself, and the new rims for "considerably less." I would imagine that's around the $150 mark or less. He said he could switch out the cog at the same time for under $20. I've heard $150 from my more local shop, as well, for new rims laced to the current hubs. If this will allow me to stop in the rain, that's all I really need.

I don't really need a dyno-hub, to be honest. I don't ride in the dark, nor do I intend to. I live 9 very, very hilly miles from my job, and I don't see myself commuting on this bike, even with lowered gearing and the greatest brakes ever (though I suppose I could, if I wanted to, as I routinely do 20 miles on it as it is now), so great lighting isn't that important. I certainly wouldn't be commuting there in the winter! It would take hours, and even in the worst Seattle traffic I can get there in 45 minutes (note that distance again and feel my pain). I can't really justify adding another $70 to the price of the rebuild just to get the possibility of dyno lights. Not to mention the cost of the lighting once I had the hubs. You know I'd need something very vintage and sexy, and that doesn't come cheap.

So if the consensus is that new rims will brake in a normally sufficient sort of way in the dry and the wet (I'm not biking the Alps, here, but the hills in my area are steep), then that's what I'll do.

snarkypup

This is true. My Panasonic brakes beautifully in all weather. But it also has some pretty sweet brakes, I must say. I'm not that confident in the Sports brake quality to begin with, but this could be because these have never stopped well. My rims are pretty lumpy, which is also part of the problem, I'm sure.

And what do you mean by "hook you up" here? I assume I can lace up that front wheel any way I want, if I'm replacing it. If I can get a relatively inexpensive dyno hub, I'll be much more interested in that idea. Though once I add the lighting... then I'll have to be the only person in this area commuting on a Sports, just to justify the expense! But let's all admit it: the Cateye on there is UGLY. So I don't know...

Oh, you people are so danged helpful! I keep changing my mind as I read!

snarkypup

Preachin' to the crowd, Sixty-Fiver, I promise.

Amesja

If you are handy doing a rim swap yourself isn't THAT hard if you use the "tape new rim to old and swap spokes one-by-one" method. Still, it's going to be a tad over $30/wheel just for the rims. As it was said earlier, doing just the front would make a HUGE difference. I plan on doing my bike one of these days -probably a winter project. Paying the LBS to do the swap using the old spokes might not be too much more if you have one that works cheap or gives you a good deal. $50/wheel would sound like a really good price and I might jump at that if my LBS were to quote me such a price even though I feel confident I could do it myself.

Then again, a dyno hub would be pretty cool too but the $$$ starts adding up. Don't forget to add the cost of slick new lights to hook up to that hub. I've found, with me at least, that I tend to get carried away so I need to start hitting the brakes early on with projects such as this or I end up emptying my wallet before I know it.

rhm

If the originality of the Raleigh pattern rims &c isn't precious to you, I'd consider whole new wheels: 36 spoke CR-18 rims, dyno-drum hub in front, and a new drive hub as well. 3 speed, sure, or go for the new 5. A lot of people are looking for the 32 or 40 H Raleigh pattern rims, so you may be able to recoup some of your costs there. if not, you'll have a whole new wheelset that you can move to another bike if you want to keep upgrading... .

Amesja

Or cold-set the rear triangle and go 8-speed with brake while one is at it! Although 135mm OLD is a bit of a spread from what 110mm? Perhaps that's a bit far. That's moving each side out 1/2" -wonder if that is uncharted territory or not.

But it would be cool to have a Sports with 8 speeds, a dyno, and hub brakes front and rear!

Eileen

New wheels, Snarky. I put them on mine, and it and the Retrovelo are my rain bikes.

rhm

Well, I'd go for a 5 speed before I did that. You could do a Shimano 8 speed hub, for sure; I've been using one on my Trek touring bike for a few years now, and like it well enough. But the steps between the gears are uneven and strike me as totally random. The Sturmey Archer 8 speed hub is nicer in this regard, but you'd have to change the crank on your Sports; you'd want a much smaller chain ring (25T or so!) which would entail a new BB, perhaps rethreading the BB, and... oh, I just think it's a distasteful can of worms.

Zaphod Beeblebrox 

I agree with Rudi. Dyno-Drum hub in the front (or just a drum with no dynamo) and look for either an AW with a Drum Brake or a newer hub like a Shimano Nexus or a new Sturmey (also with a drum brake).

If drum brakes aren't your style you can set the bike up to use Centerpull brakes like some Weinmanns or some Mafacs. Or if Period correct isn't a concern you could just slap some new Tektro Dual Pivot calipers on there and improve the braking immensely.

any way you cut it, new or vintage aluminum rims would be a nice upgrade for the braking power and for the riding pleasure.

Zaphod Beeblebrox 

Snarky, I'd be willing to wager you could easily lace these new rims & hubs up yourself. Its really quite easy.

Then you just bring them to the Bike Shop and have them tension and true them. Much less Expensive than having them build the wheel entirely.

Amesja

Yeah, I just did the gear calc on that hub with the standard 46t chainring and the largest of the available cogs it comes with (25t) and it comes out (in gear/inches):47.7 isn't that far off of what I'm using for low now on my 3-speed but the top few gears are pretty much unusable. I don't know why these guys don't offer larger cogs for these things to make them more retrofitable. Is it a matter of chainstay clearance?

30T up front would give you something like :That would be more in the area I'd be looking for in gearing.

As for retrofitting a different crankset that wouldn't be that difficult using a square-taper spindle and the stock cups or even going with the VO threadless BB. At this point it's going pretty far to preserve what is admittedly a really darn nice frame. Dump the fenders for alloy/plastic and put on an alloy stem and alloy bars and you're pretty much building an entirely new bike around the frame but it would be superior to just about anything you could buy for the money this conversion would cost.

If only someone made a really lightweight plastic full-chaincase that would be the coup de gras. That bike would be my ultimate city machine. Powercoat the frame and make it pretty much impervious to weather and you would be all set.

canyoneagle

I like the SA drum brake idea for the front. Either that or an aesthetically compatable (polished) brake replacement - Tektro makes some nice brakes that would do the trick.
Discs wouldn't suit that bike at all, IMO - kind of like putting a carbon fiber rear wing on a classic cadillac. You would need to replace the front fork and do some pretty serious frame modifications in back in order to install them.

I love the new saddle.

Sixty Fiver

Sp loves everything about this bike except the braking and new rims will address this... the nice fenders and Heron chain wheel are part of what makes this bike so charming and beautiful.

My '54 Sports came to me in pretty bedraggled shape with no shiny fenders and has been upgraded with new wheels, stem, bars, fenders and brakes and is now a pretty lightweight bike but I was headed in a different direction when I built this up as I wanted a club bike.

With the 700c wheels stock fenders would not have fit anyways and I fitted vintage Bluemels and I had to keep the Heron chain wheel which was made in a time when cottered cranks were not something you found on low end bikes and these are very well made.