jstein222

So I purchased a shimano 7speed freewheel, shimano 7 speed trigger shifters, and a set of 700c wheels from harris cyclery to replace the old steel wheels and 5 speed setup. Unfortunately, even after spacing out the hub to the max that the axle length will allow, the chain still rubs on the chainstay when in the smallest cog. So now, I'm not sure weather to get a different rear wheel with a longer axle and stretch the frame to fit, try going down to 6 speed (really don't want to do this as I need to replace all the parts and I don't like the shifter options for 6speed as well), or just set the shifter to not go to the smallest cog(last resort). Does anybody have some advice or bright ideas I may not have thought of? Would just using a narrower chain work, like a 10 speed chain or something? It seems like I only need an extra 2mm or so of clearance. Also, if I do go down to 6 speed, will suntour indexed mountain trigger shifters work with a shimano 6 speed freewheel and shimano derailleur? From what I can find on the web it seems it may not work well.

balindamood

Lots going on here. I made a similar conversion to my daughters Peugeot mixtie an it is working fine, although i seem to remember that the low-cog chain clearance is minimal. When you "spaced out the hub", did you add spacers to both sides equally, or just add to the right side? You can over-space one side a bit, but you will have to re-dish the wheel to re-center it on the frame. This is not too hard to do. You do need a 6-7-8 speed chain rather than the 5-speeder that came with the bike. Otherwize, you are looking at replacing the axle with a longer one, but I would be surprised if you had to go that route.

Shimano six-speed and Suntour anything do not tend to work well together. In fact, it either works or it does not, and I have found no rhyme or reason why (I have literally changed like components like for like and one worked and one didn't).

jstein222

thanks for the reply. I did space the hub on both sides as it is a cartridge hub so I could not move the axle to give myself more length on the drive side. Also, I do have a 6 7 8 speed chain. The only way I can think to get more clearance would be to either rebuild the wheel with an older hub that I could move the axle on to give me a couple more mm on the drive side, or try a narrower chain. I wondered if a 10speed chain would shift ok in a 7 speed cog set, also, if it would be slim enough to make a difference anyway.

WNG

First, photos would help shed light on your problem.
Not enough info has been provided to offer you a specific solution.
From your description, you shouldn't be having trouble, or at least, it's easy to resolve.
Your new wheels...did you get 126 or 130mm spaced hub?
A 10 spd chain isn't required, besides it's a bit too narrow. And a PITA.
5 speed frame equates to 120mm rear triangle spacing. Did you cold-set it to 126mm?
You should be able to fit 1 or 2 flat washers under the locknut on the drive side of the hub and you should be able to shift.
You can remove a flat washer from the non drive side then transfer it to the other side. If there's a 5mm spacer, move that over to the drive side and re-dish the wheel.

jstein222

So to be more specific, I have done everything possible with washers/ spacers, I have no axle left to space. The frame spacing is 120mm, but I opened up the frame a bit to accept the 126mm hub. The problem is due to the fact that it is a mixte. The chain rubs on that middle support between the lower chainstay and the rear fork....I guess it would be considered part of the downtube, or maybe its technically called a seat stay. I was actually just thinking maybe I could file a bit off the seat stay but I don't want to compromise the strength of the frame.

jstein222

I've just read a couple of older posts that talk about some mixtes having a bent or bowed seat stay to accommodate the chain. I wonder if there is a safe way to do this....I only need a couple of mms

jimmuller 

In order to go to more gears you need wider DO spacing, or you have to encourage the DO's further apart as you insert the axle. You also need a longer axle onto which you add the required spacers. The nominal axle length is 11mm longer than the DO spacing. Since you are putting it on a bike with a derailleur claw you should position the bearing races so that there is more length on the right. The exact amount isn't so critical as long as the axle doesn't stick out (too much) on either side, or else the QR acorn won't contact the DO sufficiently. Whether you need 126mm or 130mm DO spacing depends on what kind of 7-speed you have. Your best bet is to add some spacers to the right side until the chain clears the chainstay. Don't worry about fully locking it down. You're just trying to find out how much you need for your freewheel. Or just see how much it looks like you will need. A new axle will cost under $15 and spacers might be another few $'s. So you can afford to experiment if necessary.

jstein222

This is not an option as my hub is a sealed cartridge and to my knowledge the axle can not be moved or replaced

jimmuller 

Hmm. I've never worked with sealed bearings of any kind so I can't help there. But do measure the overall axle length. Then check whether the axle sticks out the same distance from the bearings on the left and right. A hub set up for a DO with claw has to be asymmetric; without a claw it is symmetric. Perhaps you should call Harris and ask. Or maybe someone else here can help. Anybody?

What brand hub is it?

jstein222

the hub brand is quando.

RobbieTunes

I converted a 5-sp rear with Rigida rims on Helicomatic hubs to 7-sp almost the same way you did.
I used an Alex AP18 rear wheel with a 7-sp freewheel. The chain is moved by some Shimano 3x8 XTR trigger shifters.
FD and RD are Shimano 105 7-sp and I'm using a claw. The 9-sp chain is tight, but it clears.
I have a 1mm spacer on the R axle end only.

Since I'm using center pull Weinmanns, I didn't bother to re-dish the wheel, but I would if I went another 1mm.
I tried it with a set of Shimano wheels, commuter types with an 8/9/10 freehub. It was brutal, and didn't work.

If your wheels are 700c, are you using a freewheel or a freehub?
If you're using a freehub, you can mount the 7-sp cassette in closer to the wheel hub and gain some space on the outside.
You just have to watch the RD doesn't impact the spokes.

Fill us in and we'll help you. If you can get the drivetrain working, they are really nice rides.

zandoval 

This has happened two times on Mixte rebuilds to a friend down the street - He tried everything we could think of but just went to giving up on the smallest gear... Don't feel bad about giving up on it she will never miss it...

jstein222

I've got it to where the chain is not rubbing now, however it sometimes jams in the seat stay when shifting out of the smallest cog into the next largest one. It doesn't do it every time and so far i have only tested it in the work stand and applying hand pressure to the RD...i haven't hooked up the shifters yet. It's possible that it won't do this when it's all set up and being ridden, but we'll see. I think i'm going to try filing a bit of material off the seat stay where the chain is sticking, about 2 inches forward from where it connects to the drop out.

jimmuller 

NOOOoooooooooooooo!!!!!!!! Don't do that!!!!!!!!!!!!!

First, if it sort of almost rubs now it won't be any different when you are riding, and may be worse because of frame flex. And problems like this always occur when you are shifting, not just while the chain is sitting on the small cog. A smaller small cog might help, but the problem occurs when the chain moves up off that cog onto the next one. If it is a problem you aren't going to fix it by filing. Even worse you will be weakening a critical portion of the frame.

They have a name for people who file, drill, or cut parts of frames to do hack jobs. That is exactly what you'd be doing. DON'T DO IT!

Your problem is that you are trying to fit too wide a cluster into too narrow a space. It will fit only if you move the hub to the left. That means a spacer on the right side between the dropout and the hub. Normally it would be just an additional spacer. The stuff on the axle, from the inside out, would be a bearing cone, maybe a keyed washer, then the bearing locknut, then more spacers, then another locknut. You need more spacers, preferably inside that last locknut to hold them in place. If the axle isn't long enough you need a longer axle. If you can't do this then those wheels won't fit on that bike with that freewheel. The freewheel is just too big.

It may be possible to move or replace the axle even though it has sealed cartridge bearings. After all, they had to be assembled somehow. Find someone who has done it (my experience with them is non-existent), or call Harris and ask. At least try to do it right before filing the frame.

Edit: You should ask about this in the Bicycle Mechanics forum. You might get good advice about those hubs, which will let you solve this problem properly.

jstein222

Thanks for the advice, I won't file it, I promise. I was waiting for somebody to tell me whether or not this was a good option....thank you. I was just thinking this morning that I should try to move the axle, or see if it can be moved. If not, I have decided to either get a new wheel with a hub that can be altered, or just get a different, non sealed hub for cheap on ebay or something and have the wheel rebuilt with it....whatever ends up being cheaper. with how close it is, I think just moving the axle 2 to 3mm to the drive side would solve the problem.

WNG

Even with some cartridge bearing hubs, the spacers at each end are held in place be a locknut. Loosen the drive side one, remove, add (2) 1mm washers and tighten back up. Photos of your hub may be helpful.

I think I understand that the Mixte's additional stays at the dropout are interfering. As warned, don't file away material. A better way is to flatten/kink the tube like how the chainstays are done to clear the tire. I'd rather do this as last resort than filing/grinding.

poke em

Asking for help then arguing with people about their advice, wow.

My suggestion: take it to the LBS and pay them to get the wheel set up in the drops the right way. Even with my limited knowledge the answer is obvious, the cluster needs to be spaced further from the dropout. If you can't figure it you should take it to someone who knows how to do it. You could get out the file and try to do a Bubba fix, but IMO that would be a big mistake.

miamijim

Where is it rubbing? Which stay? I know you said chain stay but is there a cahnce its on the middle stay?

Are you still using the factory dropout spacers/stops? If so try removing them and sliding the wheel back in the dropouts a touch.

What kind of chain are you using? If its shifting but catching on the stay you can try a chan with diferent profile. If its jamming and not shifting a different chain will not work.

I've filed alot of chainstays in my day.....its not a big deal.

jstein222

take it easy man. I haven't argued with anyone's advice here. It's all been helpful and I have taken and used the advice that has been given....no arguing. as for taking it to the lbs, I have done this and was told that there is nothing I can do with this wheel/ freewheel combo to make it work, that's why i'm trying other options.

Miamijim:
It is indeed rubbing on the middle seat stay not the chain stay, I was incorrect in my OP. As for a chain with a different profile, do you have any suggestions, i'm currently using a chain that has a 7.1mm external width. As for filing or crimping the frame, I think i'm too scared off to try it now.

jimmuller 

Very good move. Please post what you learn about those bearings. I (at least) would like to know how they fit and what one can do with them.

I considered those wheels once. What isn't clear from the Harris web page is how the axle is positioned, whether it is set up for a derailleur claw or a DO with integrated hanger. Nor how to re-position the axle if required. What makes it all doable is that DO's without hangers are usually thinner so that not only can you move the axle to the right, you have to. One would think it must be possible, but I'm guessing.

You are right about it needing only a few mm's. After all the original 120mm spacing was expanded to 126mm, only 3mm per side. Then to 130mm, only another 2mm.

miamijim

Try a Sedis or something with flat side plates designed for 6 or 7 speeds. If its rubbing on the middle stay moving the wheel forward or backward may help. I'd need to see pics to further diagnos

jstein222

I took the wheel to my LBS again yesterday. He took it apart and confirmed that the axle could not be moved, it is set in a fixed position. It could possibly be replaced with a different axle, but that seems silly to go through so much detective work and hub rebuilding for a relatively cheap wheel.

Miamijim: thanks for the sedis chain tip and the idea of moving the wheel. I can see from where it is rubbing that possibly moving the wheel forward will bring the chain up into the thinner crimped portion of the seat stay which might give me the clearance, i'll give it a try. Is the best way to move it forward to use those tabbed washers? there are no adjuster screws in these DOs as they are super thin.

miamijim

Yes, slide the tabbed washers forward.

I've never seen or heard of a freewheel hub in which the axle couldnt be respaced.

Pics please....

jstein222

They are these wheels. https://harriscyclery.net/itemdetails.cfm?ID=2564
and I believe these hubs https://harriscyclery.net/itemdetails.cfm?ID=2544

sorry I don't have pics of the axle, I'd have to take the hub apart again. Unfortunately I didn't get a good look at the axle when the mechanic took it apart, He seemed confident that it couldn't be moved laterally....maybe he was just lazy and didn't want to do it though, I don't know.

zandoval 

Again - Giving up on your smallest gear is not a big deal... Honest...