BG2

I have a q'n for the rih fans/experts out here.

I can buy this rih.

It is nog a super spec's bike, but is is nice enough for me to have interest in it.

It has clamps on the toptube so this must be a late 70's biked also due to the fact that is has weinmann 605 brakes introduced in 78 as is the shimano arabesque shifterset wich also was introduced in 78. 3 TTT up front and rigida red label rims (hubs i don't know yet). It also has the brass plate on the headstock wich reads rih holland.

Also 531 tubing (all original paint) and the bustraan holland decals.

Now rih was sold to cove/venlo in 72/73 and mister v/d kaay was still making made to measure frames for people while cove/venlo made the city bicycles and only later in the 80's they made racingbicycles like the elan and mistral (braze ons on toptube)

Now here is where the puzzle starts for me.

Did cove/venlo made late 70's racingbicycles with 531 tubing or was this the work of the a'dam shop.

In other words would this bike be a full blooded cove/venlo bike of still a v/d kaay made one.

Hope to hear from you.

Elev12k

Pics would help.

It could very well be the bike offered to you is a Cove example. I understand it reads 'Holland' instead of 'Amsterdam'. That is an indication. With my RIHs Amsterdam is mentioned on both frame and badge. 531 was used for Cove RIHs. I know there were 531 main triangle only frames, but possibly also full 531. With the build quility you can easily tell them apart. Compared to the originals (A'dam) the Cove's show 'crude' frameparts. The specs you mention sound more typical for a Cove RIH, than an A'dam one.

With my RIHs there is a 4 digit serial present on the lower headlug. On the Cove RIHs it is elsewhere and they use another system.

Cove acquired the rights on the RIH brand decades ago. They paid a price for it and draw benefit of it. Personally I am of the opinion they didn't contribute to the strong brand themselves. It were the original RIHs that were raced to 63 Olympic and World titles and it are the originals that show superior quality.

BG2

Thanks elev12k for your reply and info given.

Many people draw the line in 72 and beyond that a true rih where no longer being made.

However did that mean from 72 the a'dam shop never ever made any racing frames anymore ...

I feel there is a gap between 72 and later.

Cove made long before the takeover citybikes under their own name and now (72) the did also but now with the full historie from rih.

Knowing that cove was now the boss it's understandable that the no longer allowed v/d kaay to 'advertise' for his shop with the a'dam decals, frame# in the headstock lug etc all those things that where common for the genuine rih's from a'dam as he was now under the umbrella of cove / venlo.

What doesn't makes sense to me is to from 72 onwards all racing bikes where cove ones like v/d kaay didn't excisted anymore.

Also i would assume a customer could just order any part what he could afford on his past 72 rih so it's to easy to say that midrange specs would indicate a post 72 rih as a cove model.

As you see there is plenty of q'ns to raise one's eyebrows on, but i hope by sharing my thoughts and receiving the knowledge you readers might have maybe we can trow in some light in this post 72 era of rih and there bikes.

Funny enough today i met a elderly man who raced locomotief bikes in crits and such and he told me that at that time the average rider would be very happy to have weinmann as for him and may others this was a very good brand as campa was simply unaffordable let alone have a custom frame made and fitted with campa all over.

Elev12k

Locomotief that is pre Campagnolo brake era. In the 50s Weinmann was used in TdF, but in the 70s you did not opt for Weinmann on your high end racer normally. The component selection of Shimano 600 with Weinmanns is what I would expect on a Cove RIH in the 1st place and not really on a proper RIH.

"Many people draw the line in 72 and beyond that a true rih where no longer being made." I have never heard of that. On the Q on whether any proper competition aimed RIHs left the Amsterdam shop after 1972 I can say yes. Below an example. RIH even supplied track frames to the Dutch national team. I owned one. Cove acquired the rights on the brand including heritage and everything that could help market their Limburg made bikes. The original RIH shop is still Van der Kaaij's. Vd Kaaij simply continued building proper RIHs under the RIH name. Recently there has been a legal fight about the RIH name. Cove claimed Vd Kaaij should stop using the name. I think Cove RIH fear a possible new owner could start bizz that is not in the interest of Cove RIH in case Vd Kaaij sells. Vd Kaaij is not the youngest anymore.

Of course in my view there is only one reall RIH. RIH in Amsterdam that built and still builds fine bikes that were raced to many victories. Not the Limburg Cove branch that adopted the RIH name for marketing purposes.

lotek 

BG2,
My RIH is a 1974 model and absolutely a 'real' RIH. According to mr van der Kaaij it was one of the first bikes
he worked on, and one of the last made by Willem (the younger) Bustraan. This was definitely after
Cove bought the rights to the name.
I'd also point out the RIH bikes that were made for Leontien van Moorsel and Ingrid Haringa in the 90's
all came from the shop in the Jordaan.

Marty

BG2

Quote from cove.

"On both locations racing-bicycles where made from 74 until 92."

It's i'm afraid both a difficult and personal discussion on which year is a true rih and when not.

Maybe it's better to just enjoy the bikes and leave the rest to the historians and such.

Elev12k

I do not really care what Cove says. What they did is as like buying a PHD, while actually having achieved nothing. With PHD's it is fraud and illegal, with brands you can get away with it. The way they brag with RIH history shows very lousy attitude.

For me there is no discussion about when true RIHs were built vs when not. I also have never heard of such discussion. There is a broad consencus about that Cove RIHs do not qualify as true however.

BG2

Finally i have been able to buy the rih that was subject of this topic.

Included are some pix where my main q'n is was this frame made by v/d kaaij in amsterdam.

The bike appealed to me for reasons like the clamps on the toptube, 531 tubing all around, colour and the rih name.

The specs are anything but exciting, but her go's.

Brakes: weinmann 605 (introduced new in 78)
Brakelvers: weinmannn
Shifters: shimi 600 arabesque (introduced new in 78)
F/derr: shimi 600 arabesque (introduced new in 78)
R/derr: shimi 600 arabesque (introduced new in 78)
H/bar: 3ttt (beautifull logo's untouched)
Barstem: 3ttt
Seatpost: probebly sr
Seat: suede selle italia
Rims: Rigida red label
Hubs: the infamous helicomatic from maillard wich will be replaced with shimi period correct ones for the arabesque groep

The headset is a bit of a mystery as the lower cup is a brev campa and the topnut tange falcon
I assume something has happened and my q'n is regarding all the specs i assume the tange falcon headset is ok for this bike as the campy is a bit overkill.
I mean this with regards to it's authenticity.

The bottombracket say's davis components and a number of 79 (year) and 149 (number of frames made?)

Other than that i'm very happy with my rih despite possibly being a cove example.

Hope the given pix can prove some help in answering my q'ns.

Italuminium

That's a fine bike. Can't tell if that's a Venlo or an Amsterdam bike...

VintageR

Yes, it's a RIH made by Cové. The serial number's location and type gives it away. The Bocama long-points and the components are typical for a Venlo RIH and your's isn't the only one with a renewed headset (you could change it for an 600EX headset, they're around for a dime).
But seriously - why do you think it's worse than an Amsterdam bike? It just hasn't got the panache - but you can't ride panache. As far as I know the Cové bikes have a much more relaxed geometry and that's why they should be more comfortable on longer rides than the twitchier Amsterdam bikes. But they're both made of the same stuff, 11 tubes Reynolds 531 (you might remember that the tubing is among the best you can get), while later Cové bikes just had the 3 main tubes 531.
And your's has got a very pretty color scheme.
Ride it and be happy. The ride as well as the people's reaction to your bike will tell you that you did well.

BTW - those guy knew what they did when the left out the Shimano brakes. The Weinmann 605's I have are among the best vintage sidepulls I have ever used, lightyears ahead of 600 EX and a quite a bit better than Campagnolo Record. Keep 'em!

BG2

Well everybody knows the story about rih's and the year '72.
Because v/d kaay still kept making racing frames after '72 i was wondering if this one could one of those a'dam models. It would just give it a bit more "ahhhhh a a'dam made one".

Ah, interesting to read regarding the experiences you had with the weinmann 605 brakes. I didn't know that.

I forgot, but both dropouts are campy.

Other that that i'm very, very happy with it and i will preserve it the way it is and make her shine like the best once ready.

Thanks for the reply.

non-fixie 

Nice bike, BG2, great colors indeed!

But to add to the confusion about proper RIH's: I have one that may or may not have been built in Groningen by Fongers. In the 70's, as sales were picking up and the little shop in Amsterdam couldn't meet customer demand, part of the production was outsourced to Fongers, mainly sports and touring bikes. Frame numbers on bikes from Groningen are said to have five digits: four numbers and a letter.

Now I've got number 217T ... on the headlug:



I've also got 4749, a supercourse, which is probably from Amsterdam:



Production years of both bikes are still unclear to me.

non-fixie 

Sorry, I was wrong about the date of the Fongers deal. These magazine clippings are from the mid-sixties:



For those who don't read European: the first item announces that RIH's with a single chainwheel will be built by Fongers, the second is a test that says that for 300 guilders one buys an excellently finished bicycle that will suit both touring and commuting.

Elev12k

Some obvious clues say not Amsterdam, but they at least tried to establish an accurate representatation of a RIH. Nice example. Congrats.

Italuminium

So the plot thickens with Fongers added to the mix... Fongers made some real nice frames back in the day, my dad had one. I believe Elev12k sold one recently, right? Besides, those modern RIH's and older less Amsterdammy ones are still miles ahead of most that is and was offered on the market. Just not in possession of the panache of a real Jordaan made frame by true craftsman, but better then most run of the mill Batavi and Gazelles.

Elev12k

The Fongers Professional can still be had.

I would rank the average Covee somewhere near a Gazelle Trim Trophy -maybe a little more luxerious because of chrome- and below the Champion Mondial line up. Dito for the Batavus Professional: both the CM and the Prof are more advanced performance aimed frames. BG2's RIH is nicer than the average Covee example in my view.

Italuminium

I've just the group to build it up with... Sadly, I already found another destination for my tax return, due to be picked up tomorrow... I'm quite excited!

BG2

After reading the latest posts i'm getting more and more excited about 'my' rih

A few q'ns remain.

1 - what headset would match the specs of the bike.
Would that be campa (because of the lowercup) or tange falcon (because of the uppercup/nut) or a hattaswan as this headset was used on bikes with a dutch origin
My main goal is to keep as authentic as possible and not go the what is nice do it route
2 - what hubs would match the bike as the maillard helicomatic are of 82 and wrong not only because of the year ..... I have a set of shimi 600 arabesque period hubs would these be a good match with the bike

Fill me in as again i'm looking for something that could have been used from new based on the specs of the bike.

A last q'n the puzzles me a bit.

Knowing this ain't a cheap frameset due to the reynolds tubing being used, why is it that there are no cable-guides being used, but a guide clamp. I always thougth that this was done in order to save money (read: a cheap(er) frame-set).
Help me with this one.

Elev12k

The best builders went with clamping on shifters, guides, stops and cages. Initially it was the prefered method as builders were of the opinion the heat of brazing would effect the material in a negative way. If your bike is from 1979, than it is pretty late for a frame with everything clamped on. If it is earlier, than the components are probably not original.

Bianchigirll 

nice looking bikes. I have not been following this thread too close, does the seller claim it to be all original? no reason some parts weren't changed over the years.

I hope it is just the angle of the pics but is that fork not quite right?

nishikiroadace

Just to put some life into this old thread. Yes, that fork has had a good knock....
I have a similair Cove build RIH. Just not the blue on the standing tube.
Full 531 frame, Shimano 600 arabesque,SR, Tange, Weinmann brakes and rims and Normandy hubs.
No framenumber! No type indication.
Shimano parts have dates of 1978 and '79. Frame has brazed on cable support for front and rear derailleur. So 1980 RIH Luxe, made in Venlo is a good guess imo.
Although the paint is badly damaged, I still like the looks of the bike!