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RED "C" ~ Campy or Carlton ?

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RED "C" ~ Campy or Carlton ?

Old 08-01-11, 08:19 AM
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RED "C" ~ Campy or Carlton ?

Got to thinking after reading Kurt's thread on his Campy derailleur collection. Here's a shot of a NOS Gran Turismo I picked up a while ago, as a paper weight display piece, and a rather poor pic of my friend's mystery frame, which we believe is a Raleigh Grand Sport. (or Super Course) My question is, Are those red "C" bolt caps on the derailleur a Campy logo? Or did Campy brand some Gran Turismos for Raleigh's use. ie: Carlton. Note the exact same bolt head design on the seat post bolt on that frame, if you can see it. I believe I've seen that on other Raleighs as well. A minor mystery, to me, but I'm sure some of the knowledgeable folks here know the answer.


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Old 08-01-11, 08:21 AM
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Carlton.
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Old 08-01-11, 08:42 AM
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Originally Posted by TheOtherGuy View Post
Carlton.
Wrong. Same as original derailleur on my 72 Scwinn Sports Tourer. It stands for Campagnolo.
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Old 08-01-11, 08:55 AM
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Originally Posted by Old Fat Guy View Post
Wrong. Same as original derailleur on my 72 Scwinn Sports Tourer. It stands for Campagnolo.
Really? They match the seat bolts on my '73 Carlton SC, otherwise outfitted in Simplex. That's what I get for presuming!
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Old 08-01-11, 08:56 AM
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I think it is both. Check out Carlton seat-pin nuts. They appear to be the same "C" letter/font.
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Old 08-01-11, 09:03 AM
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Weird. If it is Campagnolo, what's with that seat post bolt on the Raleighs? Maybe Campy supplied the seat post bolts to Raleigh too? If it is Carlton, what's with a Carlton branded rear derailleur on a Schwinn? Interesting. Anybody got any pics of the Gran Turismo without these bolt heads? I seem to remember seeing one at some point in the past 40 years. I also think I remember seeing these bolt heads on a Valentino derailleur. Maybe. Thanks all. The plot thickens.
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Old 08-01-11, 09:06 AM
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Campy makes (made?) seat binder bolts. The newer (80's>) version are guaranteed to snap upon about their third use.
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Old 08-01-11, 09:08 AM
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Sure, I've got several of the Campy branded binder bolts, circa Nuovo Record, etc. Suppose they made a lower-mid level bolt for Raleigh? It's certainly possible, but sounds kind of odd. I note that Raleigh later used the red "R" binder bolt head.
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Old 08-01-11, 09:18 AM
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Originally Posted by Ex Pres View Post
The newer (80's>) version are guaranteed to snap upon about their third use.
+1
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Old 08-01-11, 09:18 AM
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Close up picture of Raleigh Carlton seat binder please?
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Old 08-01-11, 09:19 AM
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Coincidence.
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Old 08-01-11, 09:21 AM
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I wish I could supply a close up pic of the seat binder bolt OFG, but can't. That frame belongs to my buddy, 3K miles away. Somebody else got a pic?
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Old 08-01-11, 09:26 AM
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The 1971 Campagnolo catalog shows the C on the RD. That *should* settle it.
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Old 08-01-11, 09:29 AM
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Here's a borrowed image:

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Old 08-01-11, 09:29 AM
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I figured it was a Campy mark. Heck, maybe it's not the same logo at all on the Raleigh bolts. It sure looks the same, however. If I've opened up a meaningless pissin' match, my regrets. Just having fun with this silly minutiae.
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Old 08-01-11, 09:31 AM
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OK, so Raleigh sez to Campy, "we'll buy ten thousand derailleurs from you, but you gotta throw in the same amount of binder bolts."
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Old 08-01-11, 09:31 AM
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Definitely the same. I'd wager both stand for Campaagnolo.
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Old 08-01-11, 12:01 PM
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I'll wager too OFG. That would explain them being the same on Schwinns. Anybody ever see these red bolts or logo on any other piece of Campy gear?
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Old 08-01-11, 12:18 PM
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I have the same RD with same "C" on my grungy Atala that I'm working on, so I'd agree it's campy.

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Old 08-01-11, 12:48 PM
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Originally Posted by Old Fat Guy View Post
Close up picture of Raleigh Carlton seat binder please?
Sorry I didn't respond sooner, OFG, but I was out. Here's a closeup of the '73 Raleigh Carlton Super Course seatpost binder. As I said, I always just figured it was a Carlton mark; Campy never even entered my mind at all. I had a similar vintage Raleigh Sprite with the red "R" bolt head, so I didn't really cogitate much beyond that point. Being a fan of this sort of esoterica, I'd love to know for certain now that the topic has been raised!



Next question: is this the original seatpost binder for the SC?
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Old 08-01-11, 02:45 PM
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My '73 Gran Sport has what I think to be the original seat binder bolt. It has a nice little red emblem like that. It says "R", not "C". From a distance with your eyes squinted up it might look like "C".

The OP's frame, if it is a Gran Sport as supposed, would not have come in that color during the early 70's, no? Was it repainted or was it an newer model? If newer, I'd guess that Raleigh did not swith to using a "C" for "Carlton" for the later models. But that's just guessing.
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Old 08-01-11, 02:53 PM
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Seat binder is surely Campy. If you Anglophiles want to call it 'Carlton", go ahead. Have you ever seen a Carlton branded component? Me neither, not that I look. It is the same red as the Raleigh binders, probably the only red available then.

Cool piece, nonetheless.
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Old 08-01-11, 03:36 PM
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I, too, have wondered about this.
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Old 08-01-11, 04:51 PM
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1971 Campy catalog

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Old 08-01-11, 04:55 PM
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Originally Posted by jimmuller View Post
My '73 Gran Sport has what I think to be the original seat binder bolt. It has a nice little red emblem like that. It says "R", not "C". From a distance with your eyes squinted up it might look like "C".

The OP's frame, if it is a Gran Sport as supposed, would not have come in that color during the early 70's, no? Was it repainted or was it an newer model? If newer, I'd guess that Raleigh did not swith to using a "C" for "Carlton" for the later models. But that's just guessing.
That frame was the subject of an "ID this?" thread I did a while ago, Jim, for my pal, who sent me the pics. As near as we could tell it was some sort of early-mid 70's Raleigh, and that red C binder bolt was a clue for me as I've seen them on other Raleighs. As to the red "R" bolt, that would've been from the "Rampar" era I'm guessing. Not sure of course.

It's interesting to think Campagnolo would have provided the binder bolts for mid level Raleighs back then. Not sure I've ever held one but I think those red C bolts were quite ubiquitous as I remember. It has a decidedly English look to it , I think. Who knows. Just playin' pocket pool here.
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