Total agreement with this.

I've bought several bikes from a Charlotte DKO flipper. Guy sells over 200 bikes a year, does nothing to them, and doesn't do much for marketing either. I've seen several of his ads, showing three bikes hanging off the rack on the back of his car. He didn't even unload them.

Yes, I was being a wise guy. But under pure capitalist theory, I believe that lying, misrepresentation, and that kind of thing are perfectly fine unless they extend to the point of getting you thrown in jail (which cuts into profits) or turns off customers to the point that they will no longer buy your products (which also cuts into profits). That's not to say that you can't be both a practicing capitalist and a decent human being--it's just that they're two separate things, and one doesn't imply the other.

I agree with you, I like to deal with people who are honest, forthright and have some integrity.

There are tons and tons of good quality mountain bikes available for low prices in almost every market.

If you want a vintage road bike, you have to pay for it with time or money, because right now they are trendy.

^^ Hydrated,

Did you know that you can just delete the post altogether, instead of just editing? Choose "Edit Post", "Delete" on the bottom right, and then "Delete Message" on the bottom left.

>POOF< reply be gone.

Thanks BBM.

Sometimes I don't have a keen grasp of the obvious!

What's being discussed here has little to do with capitalism. A more properly capitalist enterprise of bike flipping would involve one person doing the work, the mechanic/driver/craigslist watcher, and another owning the means of production who pays less to the worker than is made after selling the bike, while keeping the rest.

Markets aren't unique to capitalism. All of this, the good and the bad, could happen without it.

What's at issue here is basically the tension between 2 extremes of individuals pulling a profit out of a market. The more respectable craftsman mechanic buys a neglected bike, puts considerable labor into it, adding "value," and eventually re-sells it. The second is just pulling arbitrage. Buying low, selling high.

What's interesting to me about being a mechanic and fixing up old bikes is that it's a quite opposite experience than we normally have as workers in a capitalist system. We own the means of production, add value to a product ourselves, and retain ownership at the end of the day of that product. It's more in line with the idealized owner-entrepreneur model of capitalism that's all but dead.

You're right. Now THERE'S a business plan. Dibs!

Now here's an example of a flipper who is honest about his "as is" bike. Hopefully this finds its way to someone who will put the work in that it needs:

http://newyork.craigslist.org/mnh/bik/2551737561.html

The thing that many people don't like about capitalism is that it takes effort to be successful. One day you'll figure out how it works.

And no... markets aren't unique to capitalist systems. Markets in which you have free and open choices are. One day you'll figure out how that works too.

Markets have existed throughout human history with "free and open choices."
And no, hard work doesn't necessarily lead to success, and success isn't dependent on hard work.

We're well off-topic here, so if you disagree with either of those, that's fine. I'm not going to pursue those 2 points further here.

I did re-write the post you quoted before you replied to make it more topical. If you want to discuss those points, feel free.

Not that I want this to devolve into an economics debate but you really believe global capitalist markets are free and open? Are you living in some paradise I'm unaware of? It takes effort, luck or just loose morals to be successful in capitalist markets. The last couple years haven't opened your eyes to how "democratic" capitalist markets are in PRACTICE not THEORY. Everyone likes to turn their nose at socialist models saying they sound nice in theory but don't work in practice, well you can probably say that about anything humans are involved in. Let's just drop the rhetoric okay?

The flaw here is that in most businesses, the person "owning the means of production" also is involved with the day-today work load/issues. See most any small business as an example. A lot of times the owner is also the chief employee. The other flaw - if I read your inference right - is that in your model the "owner the means of production" is taking advantage somehow and not honestly due a profit. This is conception false on many levels, the principal one being that they are the major stakeholder in whether the buusiness is successful or not, and take all the financial risks.

The second one invests time, market knowledge and capital, and takes the risk that what he buys low, he can sell high enough to make it worthwhile to repeat the process.

I don't see either one as more respectable than the other (assuming that both are honest and not crooks)- they are just different business models.

That's what I say but ... not if he's taking advantage of ignorance, people trusting his knowledge for example to believe the bike is better than it is. That's not "caveat emptor" but it is basic ethics. There is a fine line in there somewhere between selling high and cheating people. That's generally speaking and I don't know and haven't tried to check whether this particular flipper is crossing the line.

Ah, but the small businesses you're talking about are not "most businesses," but rather few and far between. We live in an economy dominated by large corporations. Also, most small businesses do run under the model I put forth - the owners make decisions, own the means of production and reaps the surplus value, the employee does the labor that creates the surplus value.

You did read the inference right. But it's an opinion. It can't be false (or true).
Ditti. And historically the arbitrage business model has been looked down on as less respectable than the "productive capitalist." Though with the financialization of our economy that's taken place over the last 30 years, it's also what most of the capital flowing around the world is involved in. Witness the growing anger against "banksters." Not hard to draw a line between what they're involved in (speculation, arbitrage, "money out of money") and the annoyance with the seller on CL who doesn't even unload the bikes from the bike rack. Though I should be clear: the CL arbitrage entrepreneur isn't deserving of nearly as much scorn.

Um, small business is the biggest sector of our economy... Not large corporations...

This looks familiar,
http://newyork.craigslist.org/mnh/bik/2546148698.html

I'm not at home to check this, but I recall something like 30% od our gdp being in the FIRE sector, which is certainly dominated by large corporations. Consumption is another huge part, and I imagine most of that is done at wal-mart and other major chains. The other prop holding up our economy is massive state investment. If it's not the case now, the crowding out of small business - the "tendency toward monopoly" is long-standing trend that I don't see slowing.

Also one caveat with the "small business" economic numbers is they're usually not what we would normally think of as "small business." They're often counting all firms with less than 50 employees IIRC.

Flipper #1 sells bikes as-is, replete with grease and grime, flats and bent cable housings. He makes no assertions as to condition.

Flipper #2 will polish a pig, and assert that it is in "like new condition" when it isn't.

Flipper #3 will clean up a bike to show it to its best advantage, but make full disclosure on every known issue.

Flipper #4 will expend as much time and money as is needed to ensure a bike actually IS in like-new condition.


- Unfortunately, there are a lot of #2 flippers, and even some #2 big businesses as we have seen. It is wrong to confuse what they do with free enterprise or even capitalism. - It's more like giving a AAA-rating to derivatives based on toxic assets.

We basically have two opposing camps here, which I would call the "golden rulers" and the "never-give-a sucker-an-even-breakers." I think you find that same division in all economic activity, not just bike sales.

While apparently, I fall into this "more respectable craftsman" category, I do not consider my method of flipping any better or worse than the other model.

I give the "arbitrage" flipper a lot of credit. First, he has to find bikes, cheap. He is spending time and effort to find them, for sure. Secondly, he is putting time and effort into marketing the bike. Third, there is the risk of the deal not working out, and tying up cash waiting for the sale to be completed.

I have bought a lot of bikes from the DKO flippers. They find them, and I pay them a finders fee. They make a good buck, and I make a buck or two as well. My last flip sale was on a bike I picked up off ebay from a DKO flipper. Paid him $165 for the bike, did the full service, tires, tubes, cables, etc., resold it for $400. I've bought several from this guy, every single one of them a different size. I am sure he did nothing to the bike, picked it up at a garage sale or wherever.

+1 To Auchen's comment. The guy I don't care for is the one either selling a damaged bike, or misrepresenting the bike as something special/high end or whatever.

When I buy bikes from flippers, they always are in category #1, selling bikes as is. The best deals for me from flippers tend to be from those that aren't too good at marketing, or they just want to move bikes fast (so they don't put any time into marketing, or knowing bikes, or whatever).

I'd say their's a big difference between a bike mechanic's "labor of love" in getting a cycle SAFE and back in the hands of a fellow cyclist, all whilst making enough change to keep him/her motivated, and a "bike flipper" that simply takes better pictures and profits from his/her fellow cyclists. Hey man, it's fine with cars and such, but cyclists are supposed to be a group of like-minded folks with purpose. I don't count those ready to profit for the sake of profit amongst us. Go find a real job. (not you ncfisherman... you sound like a fellow that falls in the first catagory)

I agreed with Bill. I bought at least five bikes off flippers (mostly keepers). They provide a service that I find beneficial. None of them have had mechanical skills or cycling interest. If they did, the price would likely be too high, and I wouldn't have bought them. However, I detest lies and misrepresentation. I have no use for that flipper.

Similar to: "just because they make it in your size doesn't mean you should wear it."