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Old Italians and New Italian: Did I mess up?

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Old Italians and New Italian: Did I mess up?

Old 09-23-11, 08:49 PM
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Veloh
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Old Italians and New Italian: Did I mess up?

I met a nice fellow who had a few nice things that I lusted after. I have a few questions regarding each so maybe an expert or interested part can help me out. I present Exhibit A, B, and C.

Exhibit A: Concorde "Giro" frame
I was smitten by the Italian frame (built for a Dutch company) especially its near perfect chrome. Apparently, the bike was never built up and looks to be that way (no bite marks on the dropout, headtube is not "stretched" from a headset). For a nice frame like this, I wasn't expecting Columbus Brain (wasn't it lower than Genius?). Needs a 26.8 seatpost I believe. Not sure about the BB threading. Kicker is the fork is not original (heavy Hi-10 it feels). Fits me but I don't know when I'll ever start this project. Anyone familiar with the Giro and where it was on the lineup? Possibly year?





Exhibit B: Campagnolo shifters
Just curious which level it might be. Not sure if it is from the same group and Exhibit C. Seems newer. Super clean though. No pitting.


Exhibit C: Campagnolo "Record"
Lovely. Heavy. Broken? As you can see, the bottom pivot's spring either seems weak (the grease is very very thick so that might contribute to something) or broken. I don't have any tools on me. Is the lower pivot point supposed to whip back like other derailleurs? Should I start crying about this one? Do these have any ways to date like the newer Campy stuff?

Last edited by Veloh; 09-23-11 at 09:03 PM.
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Old 09-23-11, 10:32 PM
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[QUOTE=Veloh;13270924]I met a nice fellow who had a few nice things that I lusted after. I have a few questions regarding each so maybe an expert or interested part can help me out. I present Exhibit A, B, and C.

Exhibit A: Concorde "Giro" frame
I was smitten by the Italian frame (built for a Dutch company) especially its near perfect chrome. Apparently, the bike was never built up and looks to be that way (no bite marks on the dropout, headtube is not "stretched" from a headset). For a nice frame like this, I wasn't expecting Columbus Brain (wasn't it lower than Genius?). Needs a 26.8 seatpost I believe. Not sure about the BB threading. Kicker is the fork is not original (heavy Hi-10 it feels). Fits me but I don't know when I'll ever start this project. Anyone familiar with the Giro and where it was on the lineup? Possibly year?
I don't think you can consider this Concorde a "fail", even tho Brain was not the top of the Columbus range back then, it's perfectly good tubing. Genius was heat-treated so cost a little more. Brain also came as an OS (oversized) set. Given the decal has a gold background, this was not a "bargain" Columbus tube (like Aelle, Cromor, Thron or Gara) which have a silver background.
Date is somewhere in the early '90s, all I can say for sure is it doesn't appear in the '93 catalog, but looks similar to several models (and clearly is Italian made). Get a good fork for it and I'm sure you'll be happy with the RIDE.
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Old 09-23-11, 10:47 PM
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I met a nice fellow who had a few nice things that I lusted after. I have a few questions regarding each so maybe an expert or interested part can help me out. I present Exhibit A, B, and C.

Exhibit A: Concorde "Giro" frame
I was smitten by the Italian frame (built for a Dutch company) especially its near perfect chrome. Apparently, the bike was never built up and looks to be that way (no bite marks on the dropout, headtube is not "stretched" from a headset). For a nice frame like this, I wasn't expecting Columbus Brain (wasn't it lower than Genius?). Needs a 26.8 seatpost I believe. Not sure about the BB threading. Kicker is the fork is not original (heavy Hi-10 it feels). Fits me but I don't know when I'll ever start this project. Anyone familiar with the Giro and where it was on the lineup? Possibly year?
I don't think you can consider this Concorde a "fail", even tho Brain was not the top of the Columbus range back then, it's perfectly good tubing. Genius was heat-treated so cost a little more. Brain also came as an OS (oversized) set. Given the decal has a gold background, this was not a "bargain" Columbus tube (like Aelle, Cromor, Thron or Gara) which have a silver background.
Date is somewhere in the early '90s, all I can say for sure is it doesn't appear in the '93 catalog, but looks similar to several models (and clearly is Italian made). Get a good fork for it and I'm sure you'll be happy with the RIDE.
Awesome. You have a lot of good information. I looked over the '93 catalogue and was disappointed to find that there weren't any other ones available online. Interestingly, the frame's color scheme is not a "Giro" but more closely resembles a "Toscana." But the "Toscana" was Thron I believe. I was also expecting the frame to be 27.2 but the one I had didn't fit...

Regardless, thanks for the input.

Also, do you happen to know if my Record derailleur is dead? The lack of whip from the pulley cage is worrying me. If it is indeed broken, I have an expensive bookend.
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Old 09-23-11, 10:55 PM
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The Campagnolo derailleur is a Campagnolo Record introduced in 1963, it is chrome steel. Nuovo Record was introduced in 1966, and Super Record in 1973. The down tube clamp on shifters date from as late as the mid to late 70's. They appear to be Nuovo/Super Record. Down tube braze on's started to appear on frames in the late 70's, depending on the make and model.
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Old 09-23-11, 11:02 PM
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Originally Posted by Ecrevisse View Post
The Campagnolo derailleur is a Campagnolo Record introduced in 1963, it is chrome steel. Nuovo Record was introduced in 1966, and Super Record in 1973. The down tube clamp on shifters date from as late as the mid to late 70's. They appear to be Nuovo/Super Record. Down tube braze on's started to appear on frames in the late 70's, depending on the make and model.
Thanks! Would the old Record have used chromed steel shifters instead of the aluminum ones of the Nuovo/Super era? Also, do you happen to know if the Record derailleur pulley cage should snap back in place?
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Old 09-24-11, 03:29 PM
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Here are some writing on the deailleur that may assist on dating. I'm assuming 3/23 may refer to chain?


Since no one knows anything about if the lower pivot should be snapping back or not, does anyone know if revealing the spring requires removing the pivot stop? It seems to be a bolt rather than a screw or allen design.
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Old 09-24-11, 03:53 PM
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Nice looking frame. I agree it may not be the cream of the crop but it isn't junk either. the fork.... you may have something there but depending on the price of the frame you could get a Carbon fork for under 150
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Old 09-24-11, 04:06 PM
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Originally Posted by Bianchigirll View Post
I am not certain, and quick trip to Velo Base will confirm this but I believe that has an exteernal type of spring part of which should be resting on the little nub near the idler pully
Pictures on velobase match mine exactly. I can't seem to find any examples with an external spring.
Also found >one< picture online. https://www.flickr.com/photos/75395133@N00/4188134834/
No answers.
The seller did talk about the Record derailleur with "a spring or something somwhere" that made it more valuable. Could he be talking about the external spring? Without a built in spring within the lower pivot mechanism, how is the chain supposed to be tensioned?
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Old 09-24-11, 04:10 PM
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Originally Posted by Veloh View Post
Here are some writing on the deailleur that may assist on dating. I'm assuming 3/23 may refer to chain?


Since no one knows anything about if the lower pivot should be snapping back or not, does anyone know if revealing the spring requires removing the pivot stop? It seems to be a bolt rather than a screw or allen design.
Actually I do know: it is supoposed to snap back. Either your spring is broken, not assembled correctly, or all needs to be overhauled, cleaned, and regreased. I got one new on a bike I bought in 1969. The shifters I got were aluminum, not chromed steel. The Catena 3/32 means you should use a 3/32 inch chain with this derailleur, and the 13-36 (usually with the word "denti") talks about the capacity of the derailleur to wrap chain. The one I had came with both an idler wheel and a jockey wheel on the cage.

The removeable pivot stop is intended to be removed - don't lose it. I would remove it before undoing the big Allen bolt (pivot), because if it will allow teh cage to pivot a complete turn, you can make sure the spring is de-tensioned before you expose it. Much safer.

I don't think there is an external spring relevant to the cage pivot. The lateral parallelogram has an external spring situated between the two vertical plates.
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Old 09-24-11, 04:23 PM
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Originally Posted by Road Fan View Post
Actually I do know: it is supoposed to snap back. Either your spring is broken, not assembled correctly, or all needs to be overhauled, cleaned, and regreased. I got one new on a bike I bought in 1969. The shifters I got were aluminum, not chromed steel. The Catena 3/32 means you should use a 3/32 inch chain with this derailleur, and the 13-36 (usually with the word "denti") talks about the capacity of the derailleur to wrap chain. The one I had came with both an idler wheel and a jockey wheel on the cage.

The removeable pivot stop is intended to be removed - don't lose it. I would remove it before undoing the big Allen bolt (pivot), because if it will allow teh cage to pivot a complete turn, you can make sure the spring is de-tensioned before you expose it. Much safer.

I don't think there is an external spring relevant to the cage pivot. The lateral parallelogram has an external spring situated between the two vertical plates.
This was the answer I was looking for. Much appreciated.
Would thick, old grease cause it to lose most of the spring's strength? The derailleur looks unused since there are no bite marks on the claw, no dirt, residue, rust, gouges, perfect pulleys, nothing. I have a hard time imagining (hopefully) that the spring is not broken. However, the grease is thicker than Gorilla glue.

Also, is it customary to grease or add oil to the metal pulleys?
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Old 09-24-11, 04:40 PM
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I have an old copy of BG from around 1996. They reviewed the Giro and really liked it. It was on my short list, but very difficult to find a US importer. I think you did great.
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Old 09-24-11, 05:30 PM
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Originally Posted by Road Fan View Post
Ae I bought in 1969. The shifters I got were aluminum, not chromed steel. The Catena 3/32 means you should use a 3/32 inch chain with this derailleur, and the 13-36 (usually with the word "denti") talks about the capacity of the derailleur to wrap chain.
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Old 09-24-11, 06:47 PM
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I have a Record RD on my Cinelli - it's definitely supposed to snap back. Something tells me even old grease shouldn't change that. Take it apart, clean it and see! FYI it's cast bronze, not steel.
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