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Raleigh Portage build, first ride, 650b first impressions

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Raleigh Portage build, first ride, 650b first impressions

Old 09-28-11, 12:29 PM
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I would try these:

https://www.rivbike.com/Pacenti-Pari-Moto-p/t200.htm

White Hetre's will quickly look like cr*p and the red will clash with the bar tape. I like the skin wall look on this bike. It matches closely w/ the painted on gold accents.
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Old 09-28-11, 12:33 PM
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I didn't think you would take me seriously about the Santa Claus comment. Get the tires that you want... that's a way bigger deal than bar tape. Last night I was going to make a C&V fashion police badge but it took to long and I lost interest.
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Old 09-28-11, 12:37 PM
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Originally Posted by fender1
I like the skin wall look on this bike. It matches closely w/ the painted on gold accents.
Hetres come in skinwall/black now as well.


Originally Posted by mkeller234
Last night I was going to make a C&V fashion police badge but it took to long and I lost interest.
Can I be your deputy?

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Old 09-28-11, 12:40 PM
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Originally Posted by noglider
This is the bike to have if you're having only one. I guess that's the opposite of a Schaefer, if you're old enough to know what I'm talking about.
I thought of that one before I saw you mention it.

Really nice bike, holiday, and a description which has reeled me in to the 650B thing.
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Old 09-28-11, 12:46 PM
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Originally Posted by ColonelJLloyd
Can I be your deputy?
No way... not with style like that.
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Old 09-28-11, 01:13 PM
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Been lurking for a couple months now but just wanted to let you know this is exactly the kind of bike I've been tinkering with in my head, I just didn't know how to put it together. Thank you for posting it! Looks like serious fun
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Old 09-28-11, 01:21 PM
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Originally Posted by olek
You are 100% correct, sir.

Unless somebody chooses to ride with seriously deflated tires.

Still, I do not think that gain from lower gear ratio is going to out-weight the higher rolling resistance, so you are double right.
I don't follow. Higher rolling resistance of what?
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Old 09-28-11, 01:24 PM
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Displacement, welcome, and thank you for unlurking. Zaphod Beeblebrox has built up a great bike with 650b wheels and an old Schwinn World Voyageur. If you haven't seen the thread, look for it with the search function.
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Old 09-28-11, 01:49 PM
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Originally Posted by noglider
....look for it with the search function.
....which kinda sucks. The first one's free.

https://www.bikeforums.net/showthread...50b+72+finally
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Old 09-28-11, 02:40 PM
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Originally Posted by -holiday76
i can say one thing, I don't know how much the difference in wheel size makes the difference, but to really get the cushy feel of a higher volume tire I think you need to go 36 mm at an absolute minimum. If you could fit a 700x36 or preferably a little bigger on a bike made for 27" wheels i'd think you'd have a fairly similar feel. My Lotus is a 27" wheeled touring bike with canti's, but the biggest I can fit in a 700c while having room for fenders is a actual 32, and that just doesnt approach the same feel as these 38's.
I have two very similar bikes, except for wheel size: a 64cm Kogswell P/R with 700x35c's, and a 65cm Trek 610, converted to 650x38b. The ride quality is very similar, but the Kog feels relatively sluggish to accelerate. Interesting, because the wheels and tires are very close in weight. I think it comes down to the difference in wheel diameter; about 40mm. Can't quote you any formulas, but IIRC, if you have two wheels of the same weight and different diameters, the smaller will accelerate (and decelerate) more readily. In this case, it's a noticeable difference.

Anybody want to buy a 64cm Kog P/R (almost complete bike)? PM me for info and pics.

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Old 09-28-11, 03:33 PM
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No, the larger wheel accelerates faster. Rolling resistance is the deflection of the tire at the front edge of the tire patch. That angle is more severe with the smaller wheel.

Another way to think about it is that both wheels require the same amount of energy to turn one revolution, but the smaller wheel requires more revolutions to go a given distance.
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Old 09-28-11, 04:21 PM
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thanks again for the compliments guys.

If I go Hetre's I'd probably get the black ones and splurge for the black leather bar tape too, which is my favorite bar material by far.
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Old 09-28-11, 05:25 PM
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Originally Posted by -holiday76
thanks again for the compliments guys.

If I go Hetre's I'd probably get the black ones and splurge for the black leather bar tape too, which is my favorite bar material by far.
Oh, I would second the vote for black hetres, but I would go with a contrasting bar tape.
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Old 09-28-11, 05:28 PM
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I was thinking that that caramel colored Brooks tape would look killer with your gear bag and against the black, but I don't think it would work with the dark seat. Still, brown + black = the business
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Old 09-28-11, 06:06 PM
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well lucky for me this aint design by committee
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Old 09-28-11, 08:40 PM
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Originally Posted by -holiday76
well lucky for me this aint design by committee
No, but once it's done the judgment will be by committee .
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Old 09-28-11, 08:41 PM
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Originally Posted by southpawboston
No, but once it's done the judgment will be by committee .
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Old 09-28-11, 08:43 PM
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true that, lucky I have thick skin.

VO Hunters Pass rack with integrated decaleur will be here Friday. Woot!
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Old 09-28-11, 09:06 PM
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Originally Posted by noglider
No, the larger wheel accelerates faster. Rolling resistance is the deflection of the tire at the front edge of the tire patch. That angle is more severe with the smaller wheel.

Another way to think about it is that both wheels require the same amount of energy to turn one revolution, but the smaller wheel requires more revolutions to go a given distance.
This has not been my experience. Smaller wheels give better acceleration. The drawback to smaller tires is that they are more affected by bumps and pot holes requiring wider tires at less inflation to act as suspension or to have shocks that add to weight and complexity. My Moulton rides smoother than my Raleigh Sports but I think there is some loss in shock system. The rolling resistance you mention above, the angle changes little between 20" and 27".

Just my 2 cents.
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Old 09-28-11, 09:16 PM
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Originally Posted by Schwinnsta
This has not been my experience. Smaller wheels give better acceleration. The drawback to smaller tires is that they are more affected by bumps and pot holes requiring wider tires at less inflation to act as suspension or to have shocks that add to weight and complexity. My Moulton rides smoother than my Raleigh Sports but I think there is some loss in shock system. The rolling resistance you mention above, the angle changes little between 20" and 27".

Just my 2 cents.
I would tend to agree with this. BQ tested approach angle effects on different size tires (although they didn't test any 20" wheels) and concluded that there was no discernible difference in terms of bump harshness. Also, smaller wheels give better acceleration because there is less rolling inertia, which is proportional to wheel diameter.
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Old 09-29-11, 04:46 AM
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Originally Posted by noglider
No, the larger wheel accelerates faster. Rolling resistance is ...
Tom, you are right about rolling resistance (even if difference is not huge), but rolling resistance has everything to do with steady state rolling, and not much with acceleration - looks like rotational mass is more important in that case.

Now, here is interesting side effect of stating that 650b wheels have smaller rotational mass compared to 27" - that means that they have less of 'rotational inertia' at any given speed, and therefore bike is inherently a bit less stable (not as strong 'gyroscopic' effect), requiring more rider's input to stay upright. Has anybody experienced that?
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Old 09-29-11, 05:30 AM
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Originally Posted by olek
Tom, you are right about rolling resistance (even if difference is not huge), but rolling resistance has everything to do with steady state rolling, and not much with acceleration - looks like rotational mass is more important in that case.

Now, here is interesting side effect of stating that 650b wheels have smaller rotational mass compared to 27" - that means that they have less of 'rotational inertia' at any given speed, and therefore bike is inherently a bit less stable (not as strong 'gyroscopic' effect), requiring more rider's input to stay upright. Has anybody experienced that?
BQ tested this also, and came up with a tire size range for any given wheel size to effect an optimal gyroscopic effect. Since the whole point of 650B is to be able to use wide tires as opposed to skinny 700c tires, the additional tire mass compensates for the smaller inherent gyroscopic effect of that wheel size. A wheel with 650x42B tires is as stable as a heel with 700x30C tires.
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Old 09-29-11, 05:35 AM
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Originally Posted by southpawboston
A wheel with 650x42B tires is as stable as a heel with 700x30C tires.
Makes sense.
But then, there should be no difference in acceleration as well... you can not have one thing without another, since both relate to rotational mass.
We are collecting some very contradictory information here
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Old 09-29-11, 07:08 AM
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Originally Posted by olek
Makes sense.
But then, there should be no difference in acceleration as well... you can not have one thing without another, since both relate to rotational mass.
Correct. HOWEVER, there is far more to stability on a bike than wheel rotational mass and gyroscopic effect.
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Old 09-29-11, 08:03 AM
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Agree with that completely.

But I fail to see how that explains difference in acceleration between bikes with 650b and 27" wheels.

If rotational mass of the wheels is about the same, and their outside diameter is also about the same, they should accelerate in a similar way.

Here is an interesting read on the subject: https://www.tomsarazac.com/tom/opinions/wheelsize.html

My personal opinion is that once there is wider/heavier tire installed on 650b wheel, it has about same acceleration properties as 27"/700 wheel, and behavior differs only because of wider tire (more plush, compliant ride with a tad higher rolling resistance, and tire would behave much better when taken to moderate off-road situations, like dirt path or gravel road.). But I have to admit that I have sold my 650b bike 2 years ago, and it was not really comparable to my road bikes, so I may be wrong on the subject.
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