A different Zieleman
 

Hi there,
I like to think of myself as a Zielemaniac since I've acquired my second example of this rare breed.
I've probably seen pictures of about a dozen Zieleman bikes on the internet, mostly "Type Special" very much like my fist one. Here are a couple of pictures:
http://bikeforums.net/attachment.php...hmentid=220273
http://bikeforums.net/attachment.php...hmentid=220274
http://bikeforums.net/attachment.php...hmentid=220275
I love this one. It's supposed to be a 1979 and the serial number starts with a 79.

Now here is the subject of interest:
http://bikeforums.net/attachment.php...hmentid=220276
It's supposed to be ca. 1983 but the serial number starts with a 76. So much for that.
Does anyone know how to read the serial numbers for sure?
Also, the red one has internal cable routing in the top tube and it is surprisingly heavy, about 2175g. It has very strong seat stays and seems to be more durable than a cobble stone. Because it was repainted at some time, there are no tubing stickes and also no 'Type Special'. Also, the 'ZIELEMAN' font is different from all I've seen elsewhere.
Another detail of interest: the siver one has 'Zieleman' engraved in the seat stay caps, the red one has 'KZ'. I know there are Zielemans with either around. Is there any meaning to it? Build by father vs. son? Older vs. younger frame...?
Any comments in particular on the red one are welcome.
Cheers,
Guido

It's not a father and son thing. According to this source (http://klassiekeracefiets.wordpress....2/12/zieleman/) he succeeded his father who didn't build any bikes himself and closed shop in the nineties with no heir apparent. KZ is obviously an acronym for Ko Zieleman, but I'm not sure if the Zieleman/KZ is a period bound thing. I don't think the red frame is a seventies bike due to the internal routing and FD braze-on, and the decals seem far to modern. I would even venture a guess that 83 might be a bit early. The beefy stays are also a pointer to a later date. By the way, the angles on the red one look quite slack - something at odds with the beefy chainstays and otherwise very race-bred set up.

Anyway, very nice frame kits, any idea how these will be build up?

Thanks for that.
I also thought the red one looks more like late 80s or even early 90s. In particular the decals have this typical look but then again, they are not original. The cable routing on top of the BB shell died out at about 1985 I think, so pre 85 seems to be indicated. The angles are actually not slack, that's just the camera angle in the picture. Sould be around 73°, I'd say. In terms of the internal top tube cable routing and the FD braze on: I've got a 1981 (definately) 753 Gazelle with both these features.

In terms of the built up, the silver one has a complete Suntour Superbe group except for the brake calipers (because the frame doesn't go with the recessed bolts that I have on my superbe calipers). I don't ride it much because it has tubular tyres.
The red one is still a bare frame. I intend to built it up to be practical: indexed 7 speed Shimano 600 tricolor, down tube shifters, dual pivot brake calipers, clinchers. Nothing too fancy, utility for long audax rides.

Awesome frames. Thanks for sharing.

The silver frame looks quite mint in the pics. Is it? In detailing that Zieleman looks quite a lot like a cherry red frame I have, except for mine is built using Columbus SL and yours with Reynolds 531 butted.

You open your topic with 'a different Zieleman'. My experience is that all Zielemans are a bit different. Some a bit more than others, but they're one offs and finding one alike is like looking a needle in a haystack generally. The internal routing and the mech braze on are an oddity on the red frame. I think it can best be explained by that they are added with a refinishing at a later date. Nowadays we trow away things each couple years and buy new, but back than people brought their old frames in for having refinished. Does it have recessed brake calliper fittings and what brake bridge does it have? I have a ca 1970 frame that has been modified for accepting recessed nuts at a later date. In my view the red frame is a mid 70s frame. I think it could be the fork is not original with the frame and is another addition. As you say the decals are of course not original, what makes it seem plausible that (the last?) refinishing in red is not done by Zieleman.

I remember reading 'KZ' on the caps denoted father and 'Zieleman' the son. Was it one here? Anyway, I personally can't confrim.

Serial: I have them with no serial, 4 digit serial and 6 digit serial. With the later the 1st two digits represent the year. How many digits does your red frame have?

Guido et al,

They were all Type Specials with the exception of the "spriit" branded ladies bikes Ko
build for wives/daughters of good customers.

A bit of history, Ko Zieleman the elder started building frames in 1928, it is unclear
if he had his own shop or who he built frames for.
Ko Zieleman the younger was born in 1933, he had a successful amateur racing
career and rode professionally for the Legnano team in 1959 and as an independent
in 1960. Ko Zieleman started his framebuilding business in 1951 in a
couple of small workshops in the Reggestraat and Ijsselstraat (River
quarter). One would have to guess that this was the father who started
the business but again this is unclear at the moment.

Early examples of Zieleman frames show few if any braze ons, a KZ in
the seatstay cap and a plain fork crown (no engraving). Most of the early
examples I've seen have full wrap around seatstays.
I have seen one twin plate fork crown on a Zieleman, that being a baanfiets
(track bike) advertized on Markplaats.
later examples with the KZ in the seatstays have brazed over the BB
cable guides and shifter bosses.
I estimate that in the late 70's early 80's the KZ on the seatstay cap was
replaced by 'Zieleman' and either a 'Z' or 'Zieleman' on the
fork crown, Ko used both flat and semi-sloping fork crowns.
I'm not sure that the KZ vs Zieleman on the seatstay caps can be used to
differentiate between the father and the son's frames.

I have 2 Zielemans, one never had a serial number, and the second
had it's serial number filed off prior to my receiving the frame, and no I
don't know who did it or why.
Ko retired from building in the mid 80's. His shop is now run by his son-in-law
although Ko often stops in.
Ko, while not well know outside of Amsterdam supplied bikes to the likes
of Hennie Kupier (Peugeot), Leo van Liet (Ti Raleigh). According to Ko
he also built track bikes for Batavus
According to Otto Beaujon (Dutch sports writer, cycling historian) Ko exported
about 235 bikes to the US during the bike boom, most were distributed through
McLean Bikes in Virginia and reportedly there was another distributor in the midwest.

I have pictures of numerous Zieleman in my Wool Jersey Gallery, as well as copies
of the original Fiets article: http://www.wooljersey.com/gallery/v/...Zieleman-Pics/

Marty

I am terribly jealous of this minty looking beautiful silver frame. Thats a rarity for Zielemans of that period i think. At least mine is considerably more rusted.

It is hard to be certain of who did what in the Zieleman shop as both dad and son seemed to work together in a small workshop and most of the time you could order just exactly how you wanted your frame done.
I remember when I ordered mine that about every extra braze-on cost 25 gulden and you had various options to choose from. The zieleman panto's at least were a late 70's option,

I'm looking forward seeing the complete build.

Pullup,

You bought at the Zieleman shop, most of what I know is from hearsay, internet, emails etc.
would you be willing to discuss the shop, etc. ?
Thanks,
Marty

PS if anyone is wanting to repaint a frame I know where to get reproduction Zieleman decals

Yes, they were meant to be raced hard in competion. Not really the bike the sissy bought. However, also I do happen to have a mint Zieleman :twitchy: Ko built it for a family member, who apparently didn't came to riding much after he took delivery of it. When I purchased the bike from him he told me a story in the car on our way to the cash dispenser: Ko had built a frame for the customer and the day the frame was ready to be collected, on route to the Zieleman shop, the customer tragicly died in a traffic accident. The frame hung untouched in the shop for many years. Not available.

I've been told it was a beautifull blue frame.

Today I spent a couple hours polishing my golden Zieleman frame. It will be build with golden French kit and Campagnolo.

goldmember themd bike, awesome :) I saw some of your parts in a thread I started a while back, I'd like to see the result!

Ah yes ...and than there are also the golden Mafac centrepulls (the engraved ones)

http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5016/...1c9f1c08_z.jpg

Very nice, very nice. A nice Rolls with the gold coloured rails too I suppose?

Mel,

Mafac 2000 gold calipers? very classy.
you also need Simplex Super LJ derailleurs in gold.

Marty

siver zieleman built up
 

Thanks so much guys, some great info!
Here are the pics of the silver Zieleman as I've currently built it up.
http://bikeforums.net/attachment.php...hmentid=220401
http://bikeforums.net/attachment.php...hmentid=220402
http://bikeforums.net/attachment.php...hmentid=220403
http://bikeforums.net/attachment.php...hmentid=220404
http://bikeforums.net/attachment.php...hmentid=220405
http://bikeforums.net/attachment.php...hmentid=220406
This one has a 5 digit serial number: 79101.
All the features on this frame plus the serial number seem to be consistent with a 1979 vintage.
I've got this rather complete Superbe group set but unfortunately I can't use all the bits on this Zieleman. The Superbe calipers have a recessed bolt but this frame is not drilled for it. Also, my Superbe seat post is 26.8mm while this Zieleman takes the 27.2mm.
I'll post my thoughts on the red one later as one is limited in # of pics per post.
Cheers,
Guido

making sense of the red oddity
 

Ok, the red one has a 5 digit serial number, too:
http://bikeforums.net/attachment.php...hmentid=220407
Someone has expressed the view it would be a mid 70s frame with later modernisations. Ok, the serial number says 1976. Here is more 'evidence' for this view:
http://bikeforums.net/attachment.php...hmentid=220408
'KZ' on wrap around seat stays as found on the 'earlier' examples.
That's how far the mid 70s idea goes though.
The rest is more modern:
- recessed brakes
- internal brake cable routing
- FD braze on
- shortish rear drop outs
(With a big hole to accommodate the spring and only a short threaded section, that's interesting. Does someone know anything about this?)
- The fork with the 'Zieleman' engraving.
In other words, the modernisation would have extended to the internal cable routing, the rear drop outs, a new fork, a braze on FD, drilling for recessed bolts.... wow!
Here are more pictures of above features:
http://bikeforums.net/attachment.php...hmentid=220409
http://bikeforums.net/attachment.php...hmentid=220410
http://bikeforums.net/attachment.php...hmentid=220411
http://bikeforums.net/attachment.php...hmentid=220412
http://bikeforums.net/attachment.php...hmentid=220413

Just a thought on the serial numbers. Possibly Ko would never build more than one frame a day max. Maye the serial number is just a date: YYMMDD with both months and day sometimes only giving one digit...? Can we test this with the serial numbers you guys have around?
Cheers,
Guido

Yup, I still think they are pretty and such good riders. This one really is a gem, nice build.

@ lotek

I did order my Zieleman at the shop around 1975.
Back then the shop was about twice as big as it is today, on the leftside door you entered to get to the framebuilding part which was located in the back in a separate space. Most of the time bikes that were being serviced or repaired would be located left front. ( It still is by the way and the last time i passed by I saw to my surprise 6 or 7 zielemans among lots of other bikes)

Most of the time this door was open and father and son would be busy and welcome you.
On the right side of the shop (you had to enter that part by a separate door) all finished bikes were presented and you could find all the components for sale.
For all payments Ko would unlock and take you to that side.
From what I remember dad was around less frequently as years went by but when I first came by I was welcomed by dad who had good racing stories and later Ko did the actual measuring and he made notes of any extra details for the build required.

I was very young and I thought a starting racer ( alas not good at it :p so I quit quicklyafter a year , did not like the crowded peloton rides) and payed for the frame myself from little savings so I had more or less the cheaper version without any braze-ons and I had collected some parts already which Ko would use to finish the build. If you had money for buying some better parts you asked Ko to switch them ( I think a lot of people did it like this. At least I know a couple of Zielemans from my friend who all did this slow and mixed building)

He always remained interested in how you were doing at the various races and would be well informed and help you maintaning and tuning the bike. If you left it and asked for various little things to be done on your bike his standard frase was: " komt voor elkaar"( which translates somewhere between: thats OK/ It will be done) after which he always would forget one or more things, which in turn would be corrected instantanuously at lightning speed.

A really nice guy and brilliant craftsman. Somehow i got the old zieleman feeling when watching the RIH building frame video when vderKaaij almost indignated says: "Sometimes people say to me that it is really special what I'm doing over here....well ok, then maybe it is" (translated freely)

Ko could have said just that.

@ Guido I think he always had a couple of frames that he worked on simultanuously. when he build mine ( which is siver with blue decals) I remember that there were two more frames being painted.

I just looked and have a serial number starting with 77 :s surely that can't be the right date because then it has to be 75

Building a RIH video on YouTube

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oc4mw_s162w

Guido,

My Reus has the same drop outs. They have a small set screw in them. The short drop outs were around in the 70s. My assumption your frame being 70s is not solely based on serial or tops. It says 70s fashion to me, also based on lugs, shell and gear cable routing. The other detailing does raise questionmarks and my attempt to answer is only my best try. I weren't there at the time. Maybe someone ordered a frame according to 70s fashion in the 80s? Okay, another possibility. You could consider going to the old Zieleman shop and try to get in touch with Ko that way. He might know.

No, Rolls is much later than my Zieleman is. A Brooks Professional it is going to be probably.

Pullup Dank u zeer , I love hearing the old stories like this.

It's my hope to get back to Amsterdam and talk to Ko, I'd love to get the definitive story on the differences in
frame details, who built what etc. Unfortunately I was there on a Monday, sr70guy showed me around,
but alas all we could do was sit at the sidewalk tables drinking Amstel (or some other local beers).

Guido, dollars to doughnuts your bike was involved in a front end crash and repaired, thus all
the new bits and modifications.

I'll be taking my older Zieleman to the local framebuilders for a respray and new decals soon,
in the meanwhile I'm collecting bits to build it up.

Marty

Hi Marty,
I've seen this yellow one here in your wooljersey gallery:
http://bikeforums.net/attachment.php...hmentid=220597
Unfortunately, the pipc is quite small but it might have a similar internal top tube routing. I suppose it's not one of yours? Do you know anything more about this one?
Cheers,
Guido

http://bikeforums.net/attachment.php...hmentid=220598
Sorry, I didn't see this pic.
Looks like the plumbing job on my Gazelle 753.
Anyway, do you know the vintage of this one.
Cheers,
Guido

Guido,
No, I don't know much about it, most of the photo's are one's I've gotten
from various auction sites (Markplaats, ebay etc.), I've tried to get more
information from the sellers but you know how that goes, especially when
I'm not buying.
I'd be interested in hearing what you think of the ride, and how
the silver one differs from the red one, and that goes for anyone else
who owns a Zieleman.

Marty

With the gold one I finally hope to finish a Zieleman that is going to be a rider. I did a 100 meters on my blue/yellow one and the feel could best be described as 'new' ...what made me feel guilty I am using it and I decided to park it away again :rolleyes:

The yellow is a quite nice paint scheme btw, but not as nice as this one imo:

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3364/...887b9996_b.jpg

Not really in your face, but it is distinctive and classy. The additional red detailing does the rest.

The panto'ed Zieleman stem is a nice touch. The panto'ing is original, the black ano isn't. It is result of a bit hobbying with chemicals by the previous owner.

Generous use of chrome

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3542/...8b93ccb0_z.jpg

Handsome Superbe cranks

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3366/...e236dbc1_z.jpg

The bike came with a wide variety of bits. Previous owner told me he also got the parts donated by his uncle, who bought new every year.

Svelte shifters

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3546/...2bde73a5_z.jpg

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3655/...e02c9e2b_z.jpg

I purchased the bike for a UK friend. The bike lives in UK now.

Zieleman!

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3406/...2f6a240969.jpg