Why did high flange road hubs disappear?
10-14-11, 04:57 AM
#27
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While nothing special, my '62 Normandy hubs with wing nuts are my favorites.
Since we're posting pictures.
Since we're posting pictures.
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10-14-11, 05:13 AM
#28
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Geometrically there are many reasons for the use of smaller hubs in road applications. I am new to the bike world, but happen to be a whiz at automobile chassis dynamics (that and happen to be a former NASCAR crewcheif), whith that said I will give my analysis-
Looking at the makeup of a wheel structure, triagulation plays THE main focus of strength like in most structural design (that and the arch). The larger the center hub, the more distance from the center axis or rotation at width, thus the greater the angle of triagulation strengh....sounds good right? well thats until you take aerodynamics and suspension or "give" which starts into the realm of esoteric aforementioned.
There is no real need of a large flange hub in road use when you an using gear selection for starting and shifting to higher gears as speed increases...unlike the torque applied to a short burst one speed track bike that sees all its life on an extremely smooth surface- thus no wheel give or elasticity of design is needed and the mute point of short burst aerodynamics is traded for the perpendicular trangulation of thrust strength. I could go on with a novel but feel this is info enough on the subject with traingulation and cross spoke elasticity- what is the other factors?...
Cost like stated. Small hubs cost less and are easier to machine as well as easier to sell when it pertains to grams. Design- the large flage would better be engineered oif the spoke flanges tapered inward in alignment with the spoke direction to the rim rather than direct perpendicular to the axle. This again in long tern riding will keep a shallower areo path of the wheel center to cut through the air- very minor and immeaserable? maybe, but it still falls under the every .01 at some point adds up to a .1 which then becomes noticible in time or speed.
Enough strength centrifical direction strength can be laced into a wheel with the simple radial lace pattern- as you all mostly know this makes a stiff and uncomfortable wheel. Rear wheels need more spokes for drive angles as well as hanging support in centrifical strength direction, so a complete radial rear lacing is TOO stiff in hang force and TOO weak in drive force- thus the dual lace pattern wheels. With dual lace patterns we now have spoke tension imbalances ad so on. The narrower angle small hub setup is just far more resilient in the long run for high milage road wheels as one user here has correctly concluded prior to my answer.
Dean
ps-(I lived in the "esoteric" world of NASCAR- Oh how I covet that word)
Looking at the makeup of a wheel structure, triagulation plays THE main focus of strength like in most structural design (that and the arch). The larger the center hub, the more distance from the center axis or rotation at width, thus the greater the angle of triagulation strengh....sounds good right? well thats until you take aerodynamics and suspension or "give" which starts into the realm of esoteric aforementioned.
There is no real need of a large flange hub in road use when you an using gear selection for starting and shifting to higher gears as speed increases...unlike the torque applied to a short burst one speed track bike that sees all its life on an extremely smooth surface- thus no wheel give or elasticity of design is needed and the mute point of short burst aerodynamics is traded for the perpendicular trangulation of thrust strength. I could go on with a novel but feel this is info enough on the subject with traingulation and cross spoke elasticity- what is the other factors?...
Cost like stated. Small hubs cost less and are easier to machine as well as easier to sell when it pertains to grams. Design- the large flage would better be engineered oif the spoke flanges tapered inward in alignment with the spoke direction to the rim rather than direct perpendicular to the axle. This again in long tern riding will keep a shallower areo path of the wheel center to cut through the air- very minor and immeaserable? maybe, but it still falls under the every .01 at some point adds up to a .1 which then becomes noticible in time or speed.
Enough strength centrifical direction strength can be laced into a wheel with the simple radial lace pattern- as you all mostly know this makes a stiff and uncomfortable wheel. Rear wheels need more spokes for drive angles as well as hanging support in centrifical strength direction, so a complete radial rear lacing is TOO stiff in hang force and TOO weak in drive force- thus the dual lace pattern wheels. With dual lace patterns we now have spoke tension imbalances ad so on. The narrower angle small hub setup is just far more resilient in the long run for high milage road wheels as one user here has correctly concluded prior to my answer.
Dean
ps-(I lived in the "esoteric" world of NASCAR- Oh how I covet that word)
10-14-11, 05:22 AM
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10-14-11, 05:42 AM
#30
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Originally Posted by sakeed123
Geometrically there are many reasons for the use of smaller hubs in road applications. I am new to the bike world, but happen to be a whiz at automobile chassis dynamics (that and happen to be a former NASCAR crewcheif), whith that said I will give my analysis-
Looking at the makeup of a wheel structure, triagulation plays THE main focus of strength like in most structural design (that and the arch). The larger the center hub, the more distance from the center axis or rotation at width, thus the greater the angle of triagulation strengh....sounds good right?
Looking at the makeup of a wheel structure, triagulation plays THE main focus of strength like in most structural design (that and the arch). The larger the center hub, the more distance from the center axis or rotation at width, thus the greater the angle of triagulation strengh....sounds good right?
)Your analysis about triangulation is great except that it applies only to a radial spoke lacing. With a 3x, or even more with a 4x, the inner end of the spoke isn't offset to form a triangle because the flange height. Rather, it is more because of the distance of the flange from the wheel centerline. A spoke from the top of the wheel, for example, will hit the flange in front of or behind the axle. So the effect of a larger flange is to increase the angle between the spoke and the wheel radius, not between the spoke and the plane of the wheel's circle. Inotherwords, all it adds is greater torquing between rim and hub, and this happens only on the rear wheel.
Wish I could draw 3-d pics quickly...
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10-14-11, 05:57 AM
#31
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Too soon! HF is just prettier. But alas, the only set that I have are shimano's (don't know which model) laced to fat 27" rims with spokes as thick as my forearm.
10-14-11, 06:09 AM
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It is purely an aesthetic thing. You can get modern HF hubs. These are American Classic.
10-14-11, 06:49 AM
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Mack Hubs makes custom drilling and hub flange in 3 sizes for campy too.
Wish the suzue were campagnolo, doubt are since is not even mentioned in the soma site.
Wish the suzue were campagnolo, doubt are since is not even mentioned in the soma site.
10-14-11, 06:56 AM
#34
Bicycle Repairman
In the bike world, "what's old is new again" is incredibly common. I wouldn't be surprised to see these hubs making a comeback in the not so distant future, even if it's just for cosmetics. I always liked the looks of high flange hubs - especially on BMX bikes and cruisers. Electra is already on board and if they do well with them, expect to see them from others.
10-14-11, 07:26 AM
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Originally Posted by Velognome
Supply and Demand or was that Demand and Supply? Oh whatever, just buy up all the highflange hubs, cause a market spike and someone VO will VO start VO making VO them VO.
10-14-11, 07:47 AM
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Originally Posted by khatfull
I just like the way they look.
10-14-11, 07:54 AM
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I built wheels with low flange Maillard 700 hubs for my '74 PX10 when I bought it new to set it apart from all the cheap bikes with high flange hubs. They're still rolling and almost round.
10-14-11, 07:58 AM
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Originally Posted by jeirvine
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10-14-11, 07:59 AM
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ever try to build a 4X 40 hole proper British wheel with a low flange hub?
And I seriously want a pair of Curtis' High Flange hubs, beautiful.
Marty
And I seriously want a pair of Curtis' High Flange hubs, beautiful.
Marty
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10-14-11, 08:04 AM
#41
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Originally Posted by sakeed123
Geometrically there are many reasons for the use of smaller hubs in road applications. I am new to the bike world, but happen to be a whiz at automobile chassis dynamics (that and happen to be a former NASCAR crewcheif), whith that said I will give my analysis-
Looking at the makeup of a wheel structure, triagulation plays THE main focus of strength like in most structural design (that and the arch). The larger the center hub, the more distance from the center axis or rotation at width, thus the greater the angle of triagulation strengh....sounds good right? well thats until you take aerodynamics and suspension or "give" which starts into the realm of esoteric aforementioned.
There is no real need of a large flange hub in road use when you an using gear selection for starting and shifting to higher gears as speed increases...unlike the torque applied to a short burst one speed track bike that sees all its life on an extremely smooth surface- thus no wheel give or elasticity of design is needed and the mute point of short burst aerodynamics is traded for the perpendicular trangulation of thrust strength. I could go on with a novel but feel this is info enough on the subject with traingulation and cross spoke elasticity- what is the other factors?...
Cost like stated. Small hubs cost less and are easier to machine as well as easier to sell when it pertains to grams. Design- the large flage would better be engineered oif the spoke flanges tapered inward in alignment with the spoke direction to the rim rather than direct perpendicular to the axle. This again in long tern riding will keep a shallower areo path of the wheel center to cut through the air- very minor and immeaserable? maybe, but it still falls under the every .01 at some point adds up to a .1 which then becomes noticible in time or speed.
Enough strength centrifical direction strength can be laced into a wheel with the simple radial lace pattern- as you all mostly know this makes a stiff and uncomfortable wheel. Rear wheels need more spokes for drive angles as well as hanging support in centrifical strength direction, so a complete radial rear lacing is TOO stiff in hang force and TOO weak in drive force- thus the dual lace pattern wheels. With dual lace patterns we now have spoke tension imbalances ad so on. The narrower angle small hub setup is just far more resilient in the long run for high milage road wheels as one user here has correctly concluded prior to my answer.
Dean
ps-(I lived in the "esoteric" world of NASCAR- Oh how I covet that word)
Looking at the makeup of a wheel structure, triagulation plays THE main focus of strength like in most structural design (that and the arch). The larger the center hub, the more distance from the center axis or rotation at width, thus the greater the angle of triagulation strengh....sounds good right? well thats until you take aerodynamics and suspension or "give" which starts into the realm of esoteric aforementioned.
There is no real need of a large flange hub in road use when you an using gear selection for starting and shifting to higher gears as speed increases...unlike the torque applied to a short burst one speed track bike that sees all its life on an extremely smooth surface- thus no wheel give or elasticity of design is needed and the mute point of short burst aerodynamics is traded for the perpendicular trangulation of thrust strength. I could go on with a novel but feel this is info enough on the subject with traingulation and cross spoke elasticity- what is the other factors?...
Cost like stated. Small hubs cost less and are easier to machine as well as easier to sell when it pertains to grams. Design- the large flage would better be engineered oif the spoke flanges tapered inward in alignment with the spoke direction to the rim rather than direct perpendicular to the axle. This again in long tern riding will keep a shallower areo path of the wheel center to cut through the air- very minor and immeaserable? maybe, but it still falls under the every .01 at some point adds up to a .1 which then becomes noticible in time or speed.
Enough strength centrifical direction strength can be laced into a wheel with the simple radial lace pattern- as you all mostly know this makes a stiff and uncomfortable wheel. Rear wheels need more spokes for drive angles as well as hanging support in centrifical strength direction, so a complete radial rear lacing is TOO stiff in hang force and TOO weak in drive force- thus the dual lace pattern wheels. With dual lace patterns we now have spoke tension imbalances ad so on. The narrower angle small hub setup is just far more resilient in the long run for high milage road wheels as one user here has correctly concluded prior to my answer.
Dean
ps-(I lived in the "esoteric" world of NASCAR- Oh how I covet that word)
I have another theory: Weight Weenie-ism.
In the end, I really believe it was market driven. With the recent fixed gear fad among young hipsters favoring "track" style, high flange hubs are once again on the rise. Suzue discontinued their disco hubs and then re-released them due to market demand.
FWIW, the front hub on my Mavic Aksiums on my RB-1 have high flange hubs. They are model year 2007:
The following model year, they went to a low flange front hub and advertised a slight weight reduction.
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10-14-11, 08:07 AM
#42
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I think balinda got to the heart of it - they're more money and heavier - which is a penalty most consumers became unwilling to pay for aesthetics. Manufacurers probably had tighter profit margins on them, which contributed to the transition.
10-14-11, 08:35 AM
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Originally Posted by jptwins
oh wow! keith, what model are these and where can i get me some? i'm thinking of attempting a wheel building this winter, and these would look great!
Very ugly and oxidized as found, cleaned and polished of course.
10-14-11, 09:26 AM
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I find it difficult to get anywhere when I ride these since all of the ladies (CV retrogrouches) flock my bike wanting to check out the high flange hubs.
10-14-11, 09:29 AM
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Originally Posted by balindamood
1). They weigh more.
2). They cost more to produce.
3). They do not provide any measurable advantage other than they look neat.
2). They cost more to produce.
3). They do not provide any measurable advantage other than they look neat.
Originally Posted by KonAaron Snake
I think balinda got to the heart of it - they're more money and heavier - which is a penalty most consumers became unwilling to pay for aesthetics. Manufacurers probably had tighter profit margins on them, which contributed to the transition.
10-14-11, 09:34 AM
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This has probably been asked before, but I'll bring it up again anyhow:
Why do the Campagnolo Sheriff Star hubs bring so much money, as compared to other similar hubs? Is it purely for aesthetic reasons?
Why do the Campagnolo Sheriff Star hubs bring so much money, as compared to other similar hubs? Is it purely for aesthetic reasons?
10-14-11, 09:41 AM
#47
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Roger - I think with Campagnolo, a lot of the time the most expensive stuff is driven simply by scarcity and it often ends up seeming counter intuitive. Not many people wanted or bought the Sheriff Stars because they were expensive, as pointed out by CDM above. Because not many wanted them, Campagnolo didn't make as many of them and they weren't around as long. They also had breakage issues as I recall, so fewer survived. It's an unusual piece that's aesthetically attractive - which means collectors are going to be interested in a way that riders would not have been when they were first around.
Once we're talking about using things like sheriff stars, we're not looking for good value, or the best functionality - if we were, we'd never be looking at vintage parts to begin with. I think the same issue drives the price of many c-record parts...they weren't as popular as some other groups in the 80s so there is less of it. Few people were going to shell out the cash for delta brakes...especially when the monoplanars were so much cheaper, lighter and simpler. For a collector, cheaper, lighter and simpler doesn't really matter - and there aren't many deltas so they are expensive. The NR and older SR parts are far more abundant because they were used so much longer and were so much popular. Many of the most valuable Campy parts were some of the least effective and least popular when they were originally in the market - like the aluminum Campy freewheels. Why are Cobaltos valuable? Because they were silly and not many people were willing to pay Campy a premium for a stone inserted into a brake that hadn't really changed in 20 years. To a vintage rider, they're really cool looking and unusual...and if the vintage rider were concerned about performance or value, he'd just buy a set of lightly used centaur brakes for 1/3rd the money.
Once we're talking about using things like sheriff stars, we're not looking for good value, or the best functionality - if we were, we'd never be looking at vintage parts to begin with. I think the same issue drives the price of many c-record parts...they weren't as popular as some other groups in the 80s so there is less of it. Few people were going to shell out the cash for delta brakes...especially when the monoplanars were so much cheaper, lighter and simpler. For a collector, cheaper, lighter and simpler doesn't really matter - and there aren't many deltas so they are expensive. The NR and older SR parts are far more abundant because they were used so much longer and were so much popular. Many of the most valuable Campy parts were some of the least effective and least popular when they were originally in the market - like the aluminum Campy freewheels. Why are Cobaltos valuable? Because they were silly and not many people were willing to pay Campy a premium for a stone inserted into a brake that hadn't really changed in 20 years. To a vintage rider, they're really cool looking and unusual...and if the vintage rider were concerned about performance or value, he'd just buy a set of lightly used centaur brakes for 1/3rd the money.
Last edited by KonAaron Snake; 10-14-11 at 09:49 AM.
10-14-11, 09:49 AM
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Thanks Aaron
You mention scarcity. However, I see them on show up on CL(Seattle anyhow) every couple of months, as well as on ebay. It doesn't seem like they are terribly low in supply.
Note: The prices on CL are just as high as the ebay prices.
You mention scarcity. However, I see them on show up on CL(Seattle anyhow) every couple of months, as well as on ebay. It doesn't seem like they are terribly low in supply.
Note: The prices on CL are just as high as the ebay prices.
Last edited by Roger M; 10-14-11 at 09:55 AM.
10-14-11, 09:54 AM
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Originally Posted by Roger M
Thanks Aaron
You mention scarcity. However, I see them on show up on CL(Seattle anyhow) every couple of months, as well as on ebay. It doesn't seem like they are terribly low in supply.
You mention scarcity. However, I see them on show up on CL(Seattle anyhow) every couple of months, as well as on ebay. It doesn't seem like they are terribly low in supply.
As far as personal experience...I've had 4 bikes go through my hands with deltas (two I still have) and have sold an additional 2 sets of deltas. I've probably touched a solid 100 sets of record hubs in the last 3 years. I've yet to own a set of sheriff stars.
10-14-11, 10:00 AM
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Originally Posted by KonAaron Snake
I think it's relative scarcity...for every sheriff star you see, you're probably seeing 1000 low flange campy record hubs. I haven't seen too many pairs that weren't in shop glass...
