Why did high flange road hubs disappear?
11-04-17, 03:57 AM
#152
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Will do! The bike that they came on will be getting a restoration as well. I started a build thread on it here.
New project! 1983 Diamond Back Ridge Runner
New project! 1983 Diamond Back Ridge Runner
11-04-17, 04:51 AM
#153
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Campy High Flange Hubs
I have always loved High Flange Campy Hubs. I have a 1973/4 Colnago that I bought early this year on eBay, it came with High Flange hubs with TUB Rims.
I wanted to ride clinchers and wanted to keep the original wheels intact so I had no trouble buying Vintage Campy High Flange hubs on eBay. I have bought three sets so far, two at 36 hole and one set at 28 hole (the rear 28 hole has never been laced). I rebuilt all the hubs except the 'as new' rear 28 hole hub with new bearing cups/balls & cones so they will ride "as new".
I have the one pair built with Mavic Open Pro 700c Clincher Rims for the Colnago and it rides great, had no problems with the hubs.
The other two sets are currently being built by "Strada Wheels" of Worthing UK. The 28 hole set with NOS Mavic 700c Open SUP Clinchers. The 36 Hole set are being built with Weinmann NOS LP18's, the only reasonable 27" rim I could find. Strada think they will be fine as they have quite a lot of metal where the spoke nipples bite.
These two wheels are to be used on a 1954 Freddie Grubb I am restoring. I will be able to take either wheel size as I have obtained a set of Campy 'drop bolts' for the brakes.
Why the High Flange Hubs were dropped I have no idea, could be fashion, cost or performance. Whatever, they are works of art in my view.
I wanted to ride clinchers and wanted to keep the original wheels intact so I had no trouble buying Vintage Campy High Flange hubs on eBay. I have bought three sets so far, two at 36 hole and one set at 28 hole (the rear 28 hole has never been laced). I rebuilt all the hubs except the 'as new' rear 28 hole hub with new bearing cups/balls & cones so they will ride "as new".
I have the one pair built with Mavic Open Pro 700c Clincher Rims for the Colnago and it rides great, had no problems with the hubs.
The other two sets are currently being built by "Strada Wheels" of Worthing UK. The 28 hole set with NOS Mavic 700c Open SUP Clinchers. The 36 Hole set are being built with Weinmann NOS LP18's, the only reasonable 27" rim I could find. Strada think they will be fine as they have quite a lot of metal where the spoke nipples bite.
These two wheels are to be used on a 1954 Freddie Grubb I am restoring. I will be able to take either wheel size as I have obtained a set of Campy 'drop bolts' for the brakes.
Why the High Flange Hubs were dropped I have no idea, could be fashion, cost or performance. Whatever, they are works of art in my view.
Last edited by PeterLYoung; 01-01-18 at 08:39 AM. Reason: Correction
11-04-17, 04:26 PM
#154
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Thank you, @63rickert and @nashvillebill. That's good perspective. I learned to build wheels well in the early 80s, and you just supplemented my mediocre knowledge. Some things don't change, and some things do.
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05-23-18, 06:53 AM
#155
...addicted...
I'm going to resurrect this thread again... I have a set of high flange "Normandy" hubs that I was considering lacing to 650b rims. What are the disadvantages? Is it going to be harder to wrestle 36 spokes 3x to 650 rims since the spokes are shorter? Higher angle leaving the hub? Would I need to upgrade to double-butted spokes? Would I curse the french-threaded freewheel if the '70's Atom freewheel wears down? It's all theoretical at this point, I could clean up the rigida 27" steelies and re-lace for a vintage set appropriate for the Gitane for the cost of new spokes... but that's less fun.
05-23-18, 07:19 AM
#156
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I'm going to resurrect this thread again... I have a set of high flange "Normandy" hubs that I was considering lacing to 650b rims. What are the disadvantages? Is it going to be harder to wrestle 36 spokes 3x to 650 rims since the spokes are shorter? Higher angle leaving the hub? Would I need to upgrade to double-butted spokes? Would I curse the french-threaded freewheel if the '70's Atom freewheel wears down? It's all theoretical at this point, I could clean up the rigida 27" steelies and re-lace for a vintage set appropriate for the Gitane for the cost of new spokes... but that's less fun.
05-23-18, 08:08 AM
#157
~>~
What's way less fun is sourcing obsolete French thread FWs in ride-able condition and using them.
Shifting on the old Atom & Maillard FWs was really not so great when new, compared w/ the readily available modern inexpensive FWs downright outstandingly-not-so-great.
As always, suit yourself.
-Bandera
Shifting on the old Atom & Maillard FWs was really not so great when new, compared w/ the readily available modern inexpensive FWs downright outstandingly-not-so-great.
As always, suit yourself.
-Bandera
05-23-18, 08:29 AM
#158
...addicted...
Hmm... maybe not worth the effort then. Certainly I was looking for options that weren't $70 - $100 per rim, then another $70 - 100 in spokes... only to have something marginally useful and not at all desirable by anyone (except maybe me).
Anyone want a set of Normandy hubs? Atom freewheel?
Anyone want a set of Normandy hubs? Atom freewheel?
05-23-18, 08:43 AM
#159
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You could get a set of these Dia-Compe ENE hubs for a pretty decent price...
(here are the the rears)
(here are the the rears)
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05-23-18, 08:55 AM
#160
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I'm going to resurrect this thread again... I have a set of high flange "Normandy" hubs that I was considering lacing to 650b rims. What are the disadvantages? Is it going to be harder to wrestle 36 spokes 3x to 650 rims since the spokes are shorter? Higher angle leaving the hub? Would I need to upgrade to double-butted spokes? Would I curse the french-threaded freewheel if the '70's Atom freewheel wears down? It's all theoretical at this point, I could clean up the rigida 27" steelies and re-lace for a vintage set appropriate for the Gitane for the cost of new spokes... but that's less fun.
A bigger problem for me is the Normandy hubs. Last time I remember these being sold, they were $10 a pair. Didn't last too long before the cones wore out. Where you gonna get replacement cones now? I'd go for the Dia Compe Ene or other higher end hub if you are bothering to build new wheels.
High flange is not a problem, mostly fashion. I do recommend double butted spokes.
05-23-18, 08:58 AM
#161
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No. I was a bike shop mechanic in the heyday of the Normandy hub and the Atom freewheel.
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05-23-18, 09:23 AM
#162
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Last edited by DIMcyclist; 05-23-18 at 09:28 AM.
05-23-18, 09:27 AM
#163
...addicted...
Lots of good advice... I'm a little surprised they were so cheap, they rolled nice and smoothly before dis-assembly... but about 4 broken spokes on that rear right at the hub...
05-23-18, 09:52 AM
#164
...addicted...
Huh.
With options like these maybe I should donate the Normandys to the co-op to sit on the shelf.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Campagnolo-...UAAOSwUWpbAd8V
With options like these maybe I should donate the Normandys to the co-op to sit on the shelf.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Campagnolo-...UAAOSwUWpbAd8V
05-23-18, 10:01 PM
#165
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Huh.
With options like these maybe I should donate the Normandys to the co-op to sit on the shelf.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Campagnolo-...UAAOSwUWpbAd8V
With options like these maybe I should donate the Normandys to the co-op to sit on the shelf.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Campagnolo-...UAAOSwUWpbAd8V
05-23-18, 10:10 PM
#166
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Campy Tipos were not as nice as Record hubs it's true, but they were much higher quality than standard Normandy hubs. The Normandy Competitions were of similar quality, perhaps a bit nicer than Tipo.
05-23-18, 10:59 PM
#167
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Yes, the spokes bend around their neighbor's heads at the flange. It's just another bend at the build time, no bigger deal than what happens at the "J" bend.
Edit: LOL! I just noticed Scott's post was 2011! I probably already answered it years ago.
Ben
05-24-18, 05:01 AM
#168
What??? Only 2 wheels?
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If you have the rims and can get spokes for not too much money, I'd say go ahead and build on the Normandy hubs if their bearing races and cones are good. You aren't investing much and the wheels may give you good life. FWIW, my Normandy hubs from '72 are still in fine shape. Of course now I spread my riding over lots of wheels and haven't used those much lately at all, but for the right project I'd use them again.
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05-24-18, 05:48 AM
#169
...addicted...
I was hoping to go for wider tires on the Gitane than the 27's will allow. I have a set of modern quando hubs laced to Mavic Open Sports that will go in there, but I was playing around with the idea of going all the way down to 650b... and with vintage components. 650b appears to be pretty expensive to do well still. Entry price for a cheap wheel set is under $100 though, so that's not too bad.
I'm actually going to ship the Normandy hubs, plus the freewheel, dork disc and skewers to another BF member for the cost of shipping and a park FR-4 tool. They will live on somewhere.
I'm actually going to ship the Normandy hubs, plus the freewheel, dork disc and skewers to another BF member for the cost of shipping and a park FR-4 tool. They will live on somewhere.
05-24-18, 08:54 AM
#170
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True, the Normandy Competitions were better. They had ground races, whereas the Nuovo Tipo hubs had stamped races. For what it's worth, Nuovo Tipo means New Type.
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05-24-18, 09:57 AM
#171
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They were a good value for the money, which is why they were the standard midrange hub on so many bikes of that era. They were quality hubs perfectly suited to the average rider.Also, inflation. They'd be like $37.95 today, or something like that.
05-24-18, 12:55 PM
#172
Senior Member
And what about the brief infatuation with High/Low hubs? Campagnolo, Hi-E, Suzue and others used to offer them:
It seems they're back with these Rolf/White Industries hubs, but the flanges are swapped with the high flange on the non-drive side:
Is this any less a gimmick than it was back in the 70s?
It seems they're back with these Rolf/White Industries hubs, but the flanges are swapped with the high flange on the non-drive side:
Is this any less a gimmick than it was back in the 70s?
05-24-18, 01:16 PM
#174
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05-24-18, 01:33 PM
#175
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OP wanted history, not engineering. Best answer so far is "fashion". Fashion set by Eddy Merckx. At the pro end of things the changeover coincided completely with Merckx. The story that was circulated was since he racked up so many miles, raced so continuously (250 race days a year), he wanted the comfort of small flange hubs. You can make fun of that story all you want, I have been riding forever and that is the story that went around. Early 70s everyone desperately wanted to score low flange Campy hubs just like Eddy had and sometimes the only way to do that was to buy a complete new Italian bike. Even if you were willing to do that many bikes arrived on these shores high flange only.
Do any here remember what building vintage wheels was like? Any here who built in the 60s or early 70s? This was the Time Before Tension Meters. Building was an art and the practitioners of that art who built wheels that were much good were few. Most wheels were just plain loose by current standards. Many who tried to build tight tight tight only succeeded in pulling spokes through the rim. A handful who had perfect pitch or who kept a tuning fork by the wheelstand could get reproducible results by sound, but the only reference standard was another wheel known to be good, and the variables of wheels are considerable. Not all good wheels sound alike.
On wheels that were marginal or plain loose high flanges and short spokes were stronger. Since wheels were a constant problem riders would believe most anything. Actually they will still believe most anything. When there was no reference standard at all for spoke tension imagine what riders would believe.
Also remember that rims were flat. Real flat. I've old rims that measure a mere ten millimeters tall. They flatspotted like mad. Everyone who rode light wheels replaced flatspotted rims continuously. Modern rims are massively stronger. All the strength in a vintage wheel came from hub and spoke. There were no stronger rims to look for. So riders did what they could. Analyzing the situation and opting for high flanges was reasonable. As much as you could do from a list of options that wasn't large or good.
Do any here remember what building vintage wheels was like? Any here who built in the 60s or early 70s? This was the Time Before Tension Meters. Building was an art and the practitioners of that art who built wheels that were much good were few. Most wheels were just plain loose by current standards. Many who tried to build tight tight tight only succeeded in pulling spokes through the rim. A handful who had perfect pitch or who kept a tuning fork by the wheelstand could get reproducible results by sound, but the only reference standard was another wheel known to be good, and the variables of wheels are considerable. Not all good wheels sound alike.
On wheels that were marginal or plain loose high flanges and short spokes were stronger. Since wheels were a constant problem riders would believe most anything. Actually they will still believe most anything. When there was no reference standard at all for spoke tension imagine what riders would believe.
Also remember that rims were flat. Real flat. I've old rims that measure a mere ten millimeters tall. They flatspotted like mad. Everyone who rode light wheels replaced flatspotted rims continuously. Modern rims are massively stronger. All the strength in a vintage wheel came from hub and spoke. There were no stronger rims to look for. So riders did what they could. Analyzing the situation and opting for high flanges was reasonable. As much as you could do from a list of options that wasn't large or good.
Then I read this comment and I do remember all of that from my long gone college days.
A LBS in State College, PA had lots of custom frames by Bob Jackson and Ron Cooper and they were setting one up for a customer and had received the first Campy low flange hubs. The customer wanted what he called Tour wheels (as in TdF, not touring). They were a hot topic as only cheaper '10-speeds' had LF hubs. They were even more exotic in that they had 32 holes also.
By the late 1970s quality LF hubs were common.
Thanks for the Wayback Machine.
