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This is NOT C&V..........

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This is NOT C&V..........

Old 10-18-11, 11:10 PM
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mapleleafs-13 
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This is NOT C&V..........

But i thought i'd make a post about it anyways...

I was browsing on ebay looking for vintage pinarello items like straps for pedal cages or little knick knacks hear and there and in the search was this bike:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/PINARELLO-DO...t_13118wt_1192

which is basically this bike...



I clicked on it just to see what newer bikes are like, this one is priced around 7700 or so...i know the pinarello dogma's are about 10k usually. Anyways just thought i'd take a peak. I don't have much interest in newer bikes right now, i enjoy my steel rides with brifter setups and whatnot, or i would've probably bought something like this. But I never thought in my head i could justify something like this, i could have like 4-5 high end vintage rides for that price.

Anyways back to the story, i'm scrolling through the picture and thinking wow this thing looks kinda cool but it's kinda out there in outer space. Then i get to this picture:





I was like wtf.... what's with the wires and whatnot....

then i see this pic:



i'm thinking "why is this derailleur so massive and bulky".."

I decide to do some research and find out it's the Shimano Electronic Intelligent System (SEIS). and requires a battery and whatnot.

https://www.shimano.com/publish/conte.../road/di2.html

Now the question is "Do you really need this??"

About a couple weeks ago i was at the bike co-op talking to one of the most knowledgeable persons that i've ever dealt with. He knows almost everything about anything. he's been working in the industry for a very long time as a mechanic and sales guy. We were talking about what shimano and campagnolo would do after they peaked in gears, because the gears are pretty much peaked, i mean how many more speeds do you need? I think shimano is at 10 and campy at 11

We were also talking about how 8speed back then was the perfect setup, some of you may disagree, but he has a big approval of the 8 speed stuff in the 90's. The consensus between both of us was 8 speed was great enough, you don't really need all this crazy 10 speed stuff and whatnot. He told me that when shimano hit ten speeds the head reps that worked for shimano pretty much told him and implied that it was pretty much a cash grab, you don't really need all that, they just needed something new for the market when it came out.

So this leads us back to this, what was the gear market gonna do next? well i guess electronic shifting is the answer. Personally, I definitely think this is overexcessive, is it really going to make a difference. Not to mention the derailleurs look hideous cause they're way bigger and styled really ugly, plus you've gotta mount that stupid battery somewhere on your bike, more ugly equipment.

It's incredible how much time they spend trying to create gimmicks like this, but then we still have problems like world peace and can't end world hunger either...but that's just my opinion...ranting at 1am in the morning....
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Old 10-18-11, 11:16 PM
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Your comments about 8-speed reassure me.. because I am about $1000 or more into an 8-speed upgrade of my Gios (just worked out that way) and I can't quite make the jump to 9 or 10. Could you expand on how 8-speed is perfect?
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Old 10-18-11, 11:18 PM
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Oh and that is quite the bike. Looks like a Team Sky team bike.
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Old 10-18-11, 11:18 PM
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agreed. di2 is pretty rediculous imho.

the great thing about bikes are their simplicity. throwing in electronics and needing to use batteries is taking part of the fun and ease away
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Old 10-18-11, 11:23 PM
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I've heard Di2 rides brilliantly and if I could afford it I would certainly try it. By the time I can afford an electronic group, Campagnolo will hopefully have perfected it and it won't look forced and bulky like Di2 currently does (or like Campy's prototype does).

I like my 8 speed (and older) groups just fine and they do the trick, don't get me wrong. And while 10 or 11 speed or electronic shifting may not be necessary, lots of people (myself included) like new toys, new technology and generally flashy things. Do you really need white bar tape to match your white saddle? Do you need chrome stays and high polished aluminum bits? Of course not, but they are pretty and half the fun of bikes is building them up and looking at them.
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Old 10-18-11, 11:27 PM
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di2 is not a gimmick when your job is to win races and is now available, or will be available, at an Ultegra level.

As for weight... don't think there is a vintage bike that comes close to the Pinny.
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Old 10-18-11, 11:33 PM
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It's not just when they went to 10 speed, or Di2. Literally everything these firms do is a cash grab. They have one goal: profits. And they need them NOW. How "reasonable" something is doesn't matter. What does matter is people buying it. And they spend lots and lots of money marketing these products to ensure that people will buy. If they don't, they will be out-competed. This basically makes it impossible to have a "steady state" of bicycle components.

It's amazing that Campy pulled off using the same designs for so long (NR/SR) in light of this. One of the reasons I love the stuff. We'll probably never see that consistency on that scale again.

And as you hit on at the end, this irrationality built into every aspect of our system has serious consequences far beyond bicycles. "Profits over people" leaves 1 billion starving every night.
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Old 10-18-11, 11:37 PM
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Occupy Shimano.
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Old 10-18-11, 11:45 PM
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Originally Posted by 4Rings6Stars View Post
I've heard Di2 rides brilliantly and if I could afford it I would certainly try it.
Same here. I've heard it's fantastic from people who have ridden it. One of those things that doesn't seem that great at first but you get used to it and you end up loving it. The price is ridiculous though. The Ultegra Di2 is supposed to be considerably cheaper, but still waaaay more than I'd spend. I have a couple 10 speed bikes, but I started riding when 9 speed was the new stuff and I really don't feel the need to go past it. I haven't noticed any improvement from my 9 speed to 10.
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Old 10-18-11, 11:46 PM
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This post also reminded me of one made many years ago, about the early "Aero" craze. You can poke holes in this sort of analysis but I think it's at least worth keeping in mind.

Originally Posted by MKahrl View Post
I disliked the Aero Era intensely. It's not so much the bikes themselves, and you guys have some very good looking examples, it was the concept.

It was the start of the Let's Make Everything Incompatible With Everything Else So Everyone Will Have to Buy Everything From Only Us. This was followed by Let's Change Everything So It's Incompatible With Our Own Products From Last Year. And the best part was the concept of Let's Provide Zero Repair Or Replacement Parts To The Bike Shops.

And the whole idea that aero parts were going to make a difference anyway. The bike magazines quickly figured out they had no affect (this was back when the bike magazines dared to right such exposes). Real bike racing was figuring out things like helmets made a small difference and the rider's position made a huge difference but flaired in jockey cages did not make a difference.

And then the whole idea evaporated within a few years and we were left with the realization that this was not a technological innovation at all but just some corporate marketing scheme that created the a fad. And it's been like this ever since. I wonder how much longer I will be able to tolerate living with only ten cogs in the back when I know that having eleven will make all the difference in the world.
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Old 10-18-11, 11:47 PM
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Originally Posted by mapleleafs-13 View Post
It's incredible how much time they spend trying to create gimmicks like this, but then we still have problems like world peace and can't end world hunger either...but that's just my opinion...ranting at 1am in the morning....
Originally Posted by delicious View Post
And as you hit on at the end, this irrationality built into every aspect of our system has serious consequences far beyond bicycles. "Profits over people" leaves 1 billion starving every night.
Originally Posted by Puget Pounder View Post
Occupy Shimano.
Can we save this for Foo or P&R? Please?
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Old 10-18-11, 11:50 PM
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Originally Posted by matt0ne View Post
Your comments about 8-speed reassure me.. because I am about $1000 or more into an 8-speed upgrade of my Gios (just worked out that way) and I can't quite make the jump to 9 or 10. Could you expand on how 8-speed is perfect?
He was just saying things about how the 8speed setups worked so well and were built well and this was pretty much all the gearing you needed anything after that was "excessive" in his opinion, something along those lines.

As for the newer stuff, IMO really newer groupsets in the 2000's look funny on older steel bikes, imagine this on your GIOS:



I personally would think it'd be pretty weird.

It's kinda like putting $6000 BBS 20 inch 2011 rims on your 1989 boxy civic hatchback.

8 speed groups with brifters work great with steel bikes in my opinion because they're still styled really well and look fantastic and not too out of this world for the older 80s frames, but that's just me. I refused to own a bike with downtubes, lol.... I enjoy brifters too much...

Last edited by mapleleafs-13; 10-18-11 at 11:55 PM.
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Old 10-18-11, 11:53 PM
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Originally Posted by delicious View Post
And as you hit on at the end, this irrationality built into every aspect of our system has serious consequences far beyond bicycles. "Profits over people" leaves 1 billion starving every night.
well at least we'll have even more accurate shifting and never ever miss a gear as long as our battery has a charge. I mean this was at the top of my priorities in life....
bikes#1
eating and staying nourished #2
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Old 10-18-11, 11:58 PM
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It always makes me laugh when folks get all knotted up about how other folks spend the money they earned. You don't like it, don't buy it.
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Old 10-18-11, 11:58 PM
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Originally Posted by khatfull View Post
Can we save this for Foo or P&R? Please?
I was just being facetious.
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Old 10-18-11, 11:59 PM
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What an awesome bike. It's pretty much overkill for non cat 2 or better racers though, let alone some curmudgeons that don't even train or compete at all (no offense to most of the c&v crowd, but just because that bike is completely unjustifiable for you, it doesn't mean it isn't an incredible piece of engineering).
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Old 10-18-11, 11:59 PM
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FWIW, I have logged considerable miles on Di2 equipped bikes, and I feel that it is one of my favorite cycling innovations of any I've tried. Don't be scared folks, it's well made and performs excellently.
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Old 10-19-11, 12:09 AM
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Originally Posted by bigbossman View Post
It always makes me laugh when folks get all knotted up about how other folks spend the money they earned. You don't like it, don't buy it.
i couldn't care less about how people spend they're money, i'm just questioning the excessiveness of the newer products that came out. The listing reminded me of the convo i had with my friend about when the market peaks on the number of speeds on the back of a bicycle then where will the gear companies go next? and will that invention make a difference or will it be a gimmick


Originally Posted by rat fink View Post
FWIW, I have logged considerable miles on Di2 equipped bikes, and I feel that it is one of my favorite cycling innovations of any I've tried. Don't be scared folks, it's well made and performs excellently.
It's good to hear other people's points of view on the Di2 bikes, i think another person already said it's pretty good too...
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Old 10-19-11, 12:33 AM
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It looks hot with the matching water bottle. I won't put the clamp on that carbon seat post tough.

' fork looks bent.

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Old 10-19-11, 12:41 AM
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Is it necessary? Of course not. But we're not driven to win, it's not our profession. There is no trickle down of Formula 1 cars to the general public to use on public roads...seems just as ridiculous. It is also cost prohibitive.
One the other hand, companies can recoup their R&D costs and make a profit with discriminatory pricing by marketing towards that segment of the public that would and can buy such state of the art bicycling gear. They find it necessary and justified.
In the end, trickle down of such tech will take place should there be any profit from it.

My personal take on this is as yours...8 is enough (like the TV show title). My cycling experience won't suffer any by running 2-3 cogs short of current limits. I am not one who chases after marketing's carrot on a stick. With that stated, I am willing to assess new tech on its own merit per value. I will be piecing together a 10-speed Ergo set up to test out on one bike. I am keeping an eye on cost. Hard to justify prices of Ergo and STi. And I don't like the aesthetics of where both are going with these mechanical systems. If you solely focus on the competition aspect, then it's understandable for the electronic approach.
To get more performance, the mechanical system is reaching its limits and a cost no object mantra won't be marketable either.
Power assisted shifting, simpler, lighter, cheaper and more ergonomic controls, fewer parts, and cheaper manufacturing costs, are all possible with adopting electronic shifting. There is justification for it.

And, if there is one thing that has gotten better, cheaper over time, it's electronics.

PS> I got to play with the Dura Ace di2 demo last year and it's very quick and precise. The brifters feel better than their mechanical counterparts. Just my opinion.
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Old 10-19-11, 12:47 AM
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Just a reminder that Mavic came out with electronic shifting a long time ago. It just didn't take that time. Di is supposed to be better though.

I like 8-speed too. Even 7 speed is fine for my recreational riding style.
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Old 10-19-11, 12:51 AM
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I work in a bike shop these days, and I have seen the pricing for this year's Ultegra Di2. It's about half of the Dura ace level componentry, and the penalty as usual, is in the weight. Even still this type of stuff is for those who race at very high levels, or who can afford to get spendy with their bikes.

I think it's a really important step in bicycle technology - Imagine being able to shift from any hand position! Di2 enables this possibility with remote shifter attachments to the wiring harness. Try doing that with cables.

Still I don't see the use for it at my level, which is recreational riding and group rides. Although I will probably get some electronic campagnolo once the technology matures a bit.
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Old 10-19-11, 01:14 AM
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Servo motors have been around for thirty years or more. C.N.C. programing has been around for thirty years or more. The two things have been put together for the first time with success in Di2, the price will now go down. Mark my word, the price will go down fast from the high point. Two years ago the Di2 group was $4000 now Di Ultegra is $2500, give them two more years and 105 will be $1500 and SRAM will have a set up in RED for 5 or 600$ more then the standard group.

I still wouldn't put it on my Ciocc or chrome Raliegh.
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Old 10-19-11, 01:40 AM
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Since this thread reminded me of ye olde Mavic Zap I decided to check out some pics of it. Di2 stuff is positively petite and svelte in comparison. Check the rear derailleur!



That little grey nubbin goes on the right shifter boss.



Shifter buttons just under the right brake lever hood.

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Old 10-19-11, 01:55 AM
  #25  
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I think that the new stuff is cool from a technological standpoint. As for me personally, the reason I like older stuff is the amount of control one had to exercise to pilot the machine properly. Don't get me wrong, I'm not hating on technology at all. One of the things I enjoy most about bicycles is the human element. I even prefer my cars to be older with less electronics. I like mechanically powered things. Batteries and wires are just more things to go wrong in my mind. It's like they're taking out the human error part of cycling which made the greats great. I like going fast and winning too, but I just like doing it on my own because of my training, not because of a computer that made sure that every shift was perfect.
/rant&quasi-soapbox
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