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Fiamme (red) timeline - a start, please join

Old 06-26-17, 06:36 AM
  #26  
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Originally Posted by T-Mar View Post
Not too many companies mixed Shimano 3.3.3 hubs with Fiamme red label tubular rims. One company that did this was CCM, on their 1973-1976 Silver Ghost. So, you may be keeping things in the family.
That's entirely possible as both were rear hubs so this might have been stock that Bicyclesport picked up when CCM closed the shop in Toronto and Mike Barry was setting up Mariposa.
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Old 06-26-17, 06:37 AM
  #27  
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Originally Posted by Jalpa_Mike View Post
Stumbled on this thread today. What a wealth of information!!!!

I'm hoping someone can help me identify which rim decal I need for a restoration I am doing on my Maserati MT-9.

According to the Maserati sales literature, the bike came with either NISI, FIAMME or San Remo aluminum rims. I'm pretty sure I have the Fiamme rims. However, I can't find a Fiamme Made in Italy stamp anywhere on the rim. As you can see from the attached photo, it appears that the original decal was a football shape (and some color left on the rim appears to be red & yellow). And, also note no eyelets on the rim too. As close as I can figure, the rims should have the yellow decal #K on the photo. Does anyone know what years the style "K" decal covered? I believe the Maserati bikes were all built around 1973-1976.

Any help would be greatly appreciated!

Mike
Just enough for me to guess that it is the red oval decal.
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Old 06-26-17, 07:00 AM
  #28  
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Originally Posted by Jalpa_Mike View Post
Stumbled on this thread today. What a wealth of information!!!!

I'm hoping someone can help me identify which rim decal I need for a restoration I am doing on my Maserati MT-9.

According to the Maserati sales literature, the bike came with either NISI, FIAMME or San Remo aluminum rims. I'm pretty sure I have the Fiamme rims. However, I can't find a Fiamme Made in Italy stamp anywhere on the rim. As you can see from the attached photo, it appears that the original decal was a football shape (and some color left on the rim appears to be red & yellow). And, also note no eyelets on the rim too. As close as I can figure, the rims should have the yellow decal #K on the photo. Does anyone know what years the style "K" decal covered? I believe the Maserati bikes were all built around 1973-1976.

Any help would be greatly appreciated!

Mike
The shape of the rim looks like the clincher model. And the shape of the remains of the decal looks it matches the one named K. And Fiamme's clincher rims always had the one named K.

Just check what type of rim it is, clincher or tubular?
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Old 06-26-17, 07:11 AM
  #29  
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Originally Posted by Niteshooter View Post
That's entirely possible as both were rear hubs so this might have been stock that Bicyclesport picked up when CCM closed the shop in Toronto and Mike Barry was setting up Mariposa.
I know that Bloor was a CCM dealer in the mid-1970s but I'm not sure about Bicyclesport. So, there's a distinct possibility that your wheels were a swapout from a Silver Ghost. I imagine Bloor had a lot of customers who were unhappy with the tubulars on their Silver Ghosts. I know that we did at the LBS where I worked. Despite advising customers about the relative fragility of tubulars, most bought them and came back dissatisfied. We installed a lot of Fiamme model 71 (yellow label) wired-on rims with 28 x 1-5/8 x 1-3/8" tyres. I still maintain that the American public's backlash to tubular tyres during the boom, was the prime reason for MAVIC & Michelin introducing high performance 700C in 1976.
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Old 06-26-17, 07:12 AM
  #30  
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Originally Posted by Hudson308 View Post
Yellow label rims from two different Fiorelli road bikes that were purchased new in 1963 or '64. These bikes were both acquired from the original owner, who related the age to the best of his knowledge.

Attachment 552055

Attachment 552056
Although that label is indeed yellow. The term Fiamme Yellow label is referring to the lightest competition tubular model. Called G at cyclomondo.net. Fiamme Yellow label was lighter than the allrounder Red label tubular.


Last edited by 1987; 06-26-17 at 07:19 AM.
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Old 06-26-17, 08:52 AM
  #31  
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Originally Posted by 1987 View Post
The shape of the rim looks like the clincher model. And the shape of the remains of the decal looks it matches the one named K. And Fiamme's clincher rims always had the one named K.

Just check what type of rim it is, clincher or tubular?
Many thanks for the information!

They are Clincher.

Mike
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Old 06-26-17, 09:01 AM
  #32  
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Originally Posted by Jalpa_Mike View Post
Many thanks for the information!

They are Clincher.

Mike
You are welcome. I noticed your thread and Fiamme clincher matches the bike in the photo.
http://www.bikeforums.net/classic-vi...ti-mt-9-a.html

You also have great taste in cars! Quattroporte + Maserati bike is a great match. Maserati bikes are also quite rare.

I write the rest in you thread.
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Old 06-26-17, 09:13 AM
  #33  
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I just received a set of Fiame Gold Label Ergal Rims with Galli hubs. These are the same rims my uncle ordered on his California Masi GC in 1975 when he bought the bike new. They just arrived in the post. The only difference being he had short flange Campy Record Hubs.

I just noticed this was a RED LABEL THREAD sorry about this post
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Old 06-26-17, 02:54 PM
  #34  
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Originally Posted by Junkboyjude View Post
I just received a set of Fiame Gold Label Ergal Rims with Galli hubs. These are the same rims my uncle ordered on his California Masi GC in 1975 when he bought the bike new. They just arrived in the post. The only difference being he had short flange Campy Record Hubs.

I just noticed this was a RED LABEL THREAD sorry about this post
Thanks
That's ok. Red and Yellow label lives side by side for long time. I am not sure if they start at the same time. Red is quite old, and maybe Yellow came later as production developed over the years. But they both probably end at the same time. And from my research it looks like Yellow label was replaced by Ergal.
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Old 06-28-17, 11:45 PM
  #35  
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No question that this rim originally had the yellow Fiamme label. I have 2 pairs of wheels with these rims. One pair on Campagnolo hubs dated 1968 , the other on Normandy hubs from the mid 70's - so the dates fit also. All of mine are 27 1/4 and I have seen these rims in 32, 26 and 40 hole configurations
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Old 06-29-17, 06:21 AM
  #36  
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Originally Posted by VeloFelo54 View Post
No question that this rim originally had the yellow Fiamme label. I have 2 pairs of wheels with these rims. One pair on Campagnolo hubs dated 1968 , the other on Normandy hubs from the mid 70's - so the dates fit also. All of mine are 27 1/4 and I have seen these rims in 32, 26 and 40 hole configurations
The yellow label wired-on rims were also available in 28" during the boom, as they were the same diameter as tubulars and often used as training or replacement wheels, prior to the introduction of high performance 700C in 1976.
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Old 06-29-17, 08:11 AM
  #37  
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Another element that has not been mentioned is that the Fiamme rims came in both road and track versions with slightly different shape. I have a few sets of NOS Ergal rims in my stash, as well as some 40 hole red labels.
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Old 06-29-17, 11:09 AM
  #38  
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Originally Posted by 1987 View Post
Thanks
That's ok. Red and Yellow label lives side by side for long time. I am not sure if they start at the same time. Red is quite old, and maybe Yellow came later as production developed over the years. But they both probably end at the same time. And from my research it looks like Yellow label was replaced by Ergal.
Yeah, I believe it was 1976 when Ergal came out (before my time). They were basically the same rim as the prior yellow label tubulars, but made with the stronger alloy. To add to the confusion, most or at least many people continued to call the Ergals "yellow labels" into the 80s.
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Old 06-29-17, 11:20 AM
  #39  
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Originally Posted by Citoyen du Monde View Post
Another element that has not been mentioned is that the Fiamme rims came in both road and track versions with slightly different shape. I have a few sets of NOS Ergal rims in my stash, as well as some 40 hole red labels.
Oh yes! I have a pair of near NOS set of Fiamme Red label track rims.
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Old 07-14-17, 08:14 AM
  #40  
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Old 07-17-17, 10:50 AM
  #41  
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Fiamme Rim

No question that this a Fiamme clincher rim. I have a few of these and none have any engraving. The welded join on them could be better though . I tidied mine up with a file/emery cloth to make braking cleaner, The rims do, however, have deeper braking surfaces than the similar Weinmann rims. The Cyclomondo yellow label is appropriate for this (the oval shape with the pointed ends) Later rims appear to carry the yellow rectangular label with simply FIAMME in white block capitals outlined in black (also available from Cyclomondo)
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Old 07-19-17, 09:25 AM
  #42  
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Another transitional rim set. Same old style decal, but different stamps.



eBay item number: 152629074641
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Old 11-20-17, 04:41 PM
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After some searching I now have a copy of the details of the patent that Longhi filed for his new construction of tubular rims (patent no. 416,249 granted 19 January 1934). I understand that the patent would have been in force for 25 years. Certainly Fiamme had 'BREVETTO LONGHI' stamped into their rims (probably until 1959). I have never seen a Mavic rim with similar stamping but do know that the diamond decals used on earlier Mavic rims carried the words 'LICENSE LONGHI'. Greg Softley of Cyclomondo has an excellent selection of these early Mavic rim decals available.
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Old 11-22-17, 11:28 AM
  #44  
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^^^ Thxs for confirming what I stated in post #9.
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Old 12-29-17, 12:55 PM
  #45  
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Originally Posted by T-Mar View Post
We know that Mario Longhi patented the double eyelet, hollow, aluminum rim in January 1934. He licensed the design to both Fiamme and Mavic. I would think that any rim bearing the Longhi designation would have been manufactured under license, prior to the patent expiration. Based on some preliminary research, the patent term in Italy appears to have been 20-25 years, indicating that the patent expired sometime during 1954-1959. Somebody with a better understanding of Italian and patent terminology may be able to confirm and narrow this down.
Very good thread here (thanks to all). As a Legnano collector, I have been wanting to catch up on the pre-1970 years of production by Fiamme as the majority of Legnano road bikes during the 40's, 50's and 60's were fitted with these rims.

There were two Fiamme rims shown in the massive parts catalog from Emilio Bozzi SpA published in 1952. One with reinforcing eyelets and one without.



Although this catalog is printed in black and white, there is a remnant of this 'marquis' shaped label on the rear rim (with eyelets) of my 1946 Legnano Tipo Roma and it is red in colour. Based on my collection of Legnano bikes, it would seem that the 'marquis' shape gave way to the 'oval' shape in the late 50's with the exception of the yellow 'marquis' label on Fiamme aluminium clincher rims. Could anyone verify this observation?

I am also interested in the Fiamme green 'oval' label rims that are branded as Cerchio Elmo as opposed to the red 'oval' Cerchio Fiamme branded rims during those years. Was the 'Elmo' a second-tier quality or heavier rim for amateur use?

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Old 12-29-17, 01:44 PM
  #46  
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I have had 2 sets of Elmos and while I don't recall the exact weights, they are heavier than the red label rims. Both sets also did not have eyelets nor a valve ferrule.
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Old 01-01-18, 12:46 PM
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Originally Posted by iab View Post
I have had 2 sets of Elmos and while I don't recall the exact weights, they are heavier than the red label rims. Both sets also did not have eyelets nor a valve ferrule.
That would make a lot of sense given that Fiamme had a lighter version in their yellow label rims.

Most if not all of the green label Elmos are fitted to my Legnano bikes that were imported to North America. Given the experience of the average NA rider with tubular rims and tires on our 'mix' of road surfaces, the heavier Elmo rim may well have been a market response by Fiamme to customers on this side of the Atlantic?

All of my Elmo rims have eyelets and valve ferrules. Since the red label rims were produced with and without, it would follow that they did the same for the Elmo rims.

Would anyone have a reference on who and when S.A. Fiamme was founded and when they closed their doors?
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Old 01-02-18, 12:12 PM
  #48  
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Originally Posted by iab View Post
I have had 2 sets of Elmos and while I don't recall the exact weights, they are heavier than the red label rims. Both sets also did not have eyelets nor a valve ferrule.
Yes, these tubulars are not unusually light. They came laced to Shimano 333 high-flange hubs on a lower-middle tier Fiorelli (Milano Sanremo). The hubs are date coded "RD" (rear), and "RU" (front). They're obviously older than '93, so the date stamps don't match the convention detailed on the Vintage Trek website.

Attachment 594179

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1010141639c.jpg

IMG_3707.jpg
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Old 01-24-18, 07:06 PM
  #49  
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-----

Unknown rim transfer -

This image was posted on another forum.

One participant identified it as FIAMME. Have me doubts.

The only two devices I have ever seen on vintage S.A. FIAMME rim transfers are the knight's helm and the Pegasus.

This eagle's head with crown looks familiar but am unable to place it. Could it perhaps be part of the crest for an Italian city or province?
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Old 10-19-18, 11:14 AM
  #50  
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Here’s a pair of Fiamme which I suspect are Sprints. Both are double walled, and pinned.

Cheap hobby grade vernier calipers give the following measurements:
outer width 21mm
height 11mm

Taking the information gathered from the OP, I believe I have one example each for rim styles #3 and #5

Some general photos of both rims:









This singular rim wears the “BREVETTO LONGHI” decal, and is clearly stamped “FIAMME MADE IN ITALY.” These details I presume, would indicate style #3:





The lack of a ferrule at the valve stem hole would further indicate that it’s a later #3 (mid-60’s?):





And this rim looks to be a #5 as it wears the "CERCHIO FIAMME" decal. The stamping is not so obvious however as it only reads “FIAMME.” As far I can tell every issue of these rims would bare some othe text in the stamping. I suspect then that keeping inline with a #5 the small font “Italy” has disappeared over time perhaps due to polishing over the decades. “FIAMME” is faintly present here as it is:






I acquired these rims in a trade, and am thinking of lacing them up to a set of high flange Record hubs.




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