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Fiamme (red) timeline - a start, please join

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Fiamme (red) timeline - a start, please join

Old 11-14-11, 09:57 AM
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Fiamme red label rims timeline - an attempt

Update 2 Aug 2014:
FRI (Fiamme Research Institute) has saved an eBay search pattern for Fiamme rims and wheelsets. And recently something interesting showed up that can shine some new light on the Fiamme history, 221483946798. It was a wheelset of type 3 below, but without a ferrule for the valve hole. The suspected transitional model. But the date stamp on the hub locknuts stated 1971. That sounds very late for that style, around that time most rims that I've seen are of type 5. But parts can have a long shelf life, and especially rims can hang in the shop for a long time before being laced to a hub.

- - -

First there are not many Fiamme catalogs or other sources available online. But I have compiled all the information I could find and with your help we might be able to solve this. The research has a focus on Red label road rim, but it can be useful for Yellow label and partly for Ergal and some other.

The goal is to be able to date a rim from visual characteristics. As a help for buying the right rim or new set of decals. For that we need to place those characteristics in the right order and with the best possible dating. Hopefully better than something like 60s or mid 70s.

I have made a collage from the different red Fiamme rims. If a style of Fiamme red label rim is missing please let me know. Notice how not just the decals but the stamps as well gets more simplified over the years.



1.

Stamp: "BREVETTO LONGHI, S.A. FIAMME, MILANO"

An old Fiamme rim, maybe pre red label era. And probably pre decals.
Another reference: http://www.flickr.com/photos/27985423@N07/7225739468/
Notice the riveted joint.
When did Fiamme start adding a decal?

2.
Decal shape: oval
Decal symbol: crest
Decal text: top "BREVETTO LONGHI", bottom "CERCHIO FIAMME"
Stamp: "BREVETTO LONGHI, FIAMME, MADE IN ITALY"

3.
Decal shape: oval
Decal symbol: crest
Decal text: top "BREVETTO LONGHI", bottom "CERCHIO FIAMME"
Stamp: "FIAMME, MADE IN ITALY"

Date: from mid 1950s to early/mid60s? - without any good source it's difficult to be precis here, but the model existed in the 1960s for sure. This is the last version that has got a ferruled valve hole.
Update: The ferrule for the valve hole is eliminated during the later part of this models era.

4.
Decal shape: oval
Decal symbol: crest
Decal text: top "BREVETTO LONGHI", bottom "CERCHIO FIAMME"
Stamp: FIAMME, ITALY

Rim with replacement decal. This rim is interesting because it has got the the old decal but a more modern stamp. Did that decal exist parallel to the modern stamp or is this just a example of the common mistake of choosing the wrong decal. And there is one more odd thing, for some reason most of the available replica decals has a mirrored crest, the gold color is on the wrong side.

5.
Decal shape: oval
Decal symbol: crest
Decal text: bottom "CERCHIO FIAMME"
Stamp: FIAMME, ITALY

As what I know this style could be dating from late 1960s to 1975-76.
Comparing Holdsworthy Aids GB retail catalogs from 1975 and 1976, Fiamme Ergal first appear in 1976. Fiamme Ergal has got a rectangular logo and my guess is that Fiamme changed all logos at the same time.

Date: mid/late 1960s - 1975?

6.
Decal shape: rectangle
Decal symbol: -
Decal text: "FIAMME"
Stamp: FIAMME, ITALY

Date: 1976 - 1980s?

7.
Decal shape: tilted rectangle
Decal symbol: -
Decal text: "FIAMME"
Stamp: FIAMME, ITALY

Date: 1980s

Is this even a red label? In Fiamme 1985 catalog the decal design corresponds to the track rim called Speedy. In the same catalog the rims that corresponds to Red labels specifications (360 grams, tubular rim with normal finish) is Ergal Iride and Gi 8.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Unfortunately the photos don't show the hole for the valve stem and if it has a ferrule or not. What year did the ferrule for the valve stem disappear?

Note: when Fiamme Ergal is new the rim it's usually double named in many retail catalogs as Ergal / Yellow.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
These sources has been of great help

Classic lightweights - Fiamme sprint rims
http://www.classiclightweights.co.uk...amme-rims.html

Classic lightweights - Fiamme
http://www.classiclightweights.co.uk...hs-fiamme.html

Velo pages - Fiamme catalogs
http://www.velo-pages.com/main.php?g2_itemId=62

Velo pages - Vintage cycle rim histography - tubulars and clinchers (1961-1986)
http://www.velo-pages.com/main.php?g2_itemId=32690

Velobase - Fiamme rims
http://www.velobase.com/ListComponen...7-7d427091e6a4

Speedbicycles
http://www.speedbicycles.ch

Kurt Sperrys Picasa album
https://picasaweb.google.com/1154170...meRedLabelRims
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Fiamme timeline 50.jpg (88.5 KB, 463 views)

Last edited by 1987; 08-02-14 at 05:07 PM.
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Old 02-01-15, 01:58 PM
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An old thread, but it was updated a couple months ago.

Here is a red label to throw a wrench into the works. Off of a 48/49 Viscontea pista. No eyelets, stamped Fiamme Milano.

Viscontea Pista Before 17 by iabisdb, on Flickr
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Old 02-01-15, 02:23 PM
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Great thread, when I restored my 1971 I bought some oval Fiamme decals off ebay and replaced the original not taking not if there were any real differences and figured good enough... I will never know which version I actually have.... but now I'll go check the rim stamp....

Checked: I have "number 4" which is the replacement decal and exactly the same. I suspect it is actually a number 5 and that number 4 has the replacement decal as mine does, they're a perfect match. Also, look how polished and how the brass nipples on number 4 still have their new plated shin. That is a rebuilt wheel. That has got to be the same cyclomondo decal. I should replace with a more correct one.
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Old 08-04-15, 04:10 AM
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This seems to be accurate in my case with a '77 Colnago that has the #6 .
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Old 11-29-15, 01:10 PM
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I have 2 pairs of Fiamme tubular rims, The first carries the 'Brevetto Longhi' impression exactly as type 2. These are 40 / 32 hole rims and are interesting as the rear rim (40 holes) is 21.5 mm wide and the front (32 holes) 20.5 mm wide. both have curved sides and are track rims. The second set are exactly as type 4 ( again 40 rear - 32 front) and one carries a remnant of the oval label as in the picture shown. When I acquired these rims it was clear from the patina that the remains of the decals were original, so I would suggest that the decal illustrated may well be correct for this rim. Bear in mind that a manufacturer would hardly be likely to discard items like decals purely because he had a new die made reading 'ITALY'. instead of 'MADE IN ITALY' but may have changed the design once the existing type was used up. The 'type 4' rims that I have have a squarer profile (i e suitable for use with brakes) and are approx 21 mm wide.
I have no idea if Fiamme are still in business. I speak no Italian but if I did perhaps contacting them for some history might be useful ?
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Old 03-07-16, 04:40 PM
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Originally Posted by VeloFelo54 View Post
I have 2 pairs of Fiamme tubular rims, The first carries the 'Brevetto Longhi' impression exactly as type 2. These are 40 / 32 hole rims and are interesting as the rear rim (40 holes) is 21.5 mm wide and the front (32 holes) 20.5 mm wide. both have curved sides and are track rims. The second set are exactly as type 4 ( again 40 rear - 32 front) and one carries a remnant of the oval label as in the picture shown. When I acquired these rims it was clear from the patina that the remains of the decals were original, so I would suggest that the decal illustrated may well be correct for this rim. Bear in mind that a manufacturer would hardly be likely to discard items like decals purely because he had a new die made reading 'ITALY'. instead of 'MADE IN ITALY' but may have changed the design once the existing type was used up. The 'type 4' rims that I have have a squarer profile (i e suitable for use with brakes) and are approx 21 mm wide.
I have no idea if Fiamme are still in business. I speak no Italian but if I did perhaps contacting them for some history might be useful ?
Finally some response. Credits to all of you @iab, @cyclotoine, @OldsCOOL and @VeloFelo54.

Interesting info @VeloFelo54, those fat rear pista rims might be similar to what the track bike @iab referred to above was equipped with:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/681231...57650164532378

And of course Cyclomondo needs a direct link to the their Fiamme replacement decals:
CYCLOMONDO - Various rim frame hub & other
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Old 03-07-16, 05:03 PM
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Thanks 1987
I have since obtained another rim (front) with the Longhi patent mark - 32 hole front with the slightly squarer profile. Dating from mid 1950's I suspect. Again approx 20.5 mm wide. These really are excellent quality rims and were clearly very popular in the UK in the past.
Just need to find another 40 hole rear to match !
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Old 06-18-16, 10:55 PM
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Fiamme rims update

To add further to this :
I have now learned that these rims were available as early as 1934. I have found an advertisement in ‘Cycling’ dated March 2nd 1934 advertising these. It seems that the Tabucchi Tyre Co were importing them at that time (Described as duralumin tubular 9 oz. rims).
At 32 shillings per pair they were hugely expensive. In a 1936 issue of 'Cycling' they had increased in price to 17 shillings each and Claud Butler was offering these as an alternative for some of his models. I have recently acquired another pair of these on early Fratelli hubs with the 'Milano' stamp which I believe may be pre WW2. These are 19 mm wide (i e very narrow) and extremely light.
Whilst they carried no labels, it is worth remembering that self adhesive labels were generally not around until after WW2, Stan Avery having (supposedly) inventing them in the late 30's
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Old 09-27-16, 08:44 AM
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We know that Mario Longhi patented the double eyelet, hollow, aluminum rim in January 1934. He licensed the design to both Fiamme and Mavic. I would think that any rim bearing the Longhi designation would have been manufactured under license, prior to the patent expiration. Based on some preliminary research, the patent term in Italy appears to have been 20-25 years, indicating that the patent expired sometime during 1954-1959. Somebody with a better understanding of Italian and patent terminology may be able to confirm and narrow this down.
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Old 09-27-16, 05:10 PM
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Originally Posted by T-Mar View Post
We know that Mario Longhi patented the double eyelet, hollow, aluminum rim in January 1934. He licensed the design to both Fiamme and Mavic. I would think that any rim bearing the Longhi designation would have been manufactured under license, prior to the patent expiration. Based on some preliminary research, the patent term in Italy appears to have been 20-25 years, indicating that the patent expired sometime during 1954-1959. Somebody with a better understanding of Italian and patent terminology may be able to confirm and narrow this down.
Do Mavic rims carry the same Longhi designation?
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Old 09-27-16, 06:03 PM
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Originally Posted by iab View Post
Do Mavic rims carry the same Longhi designation?
I've never seen one but then I've never specifically looked for it. Curiously, the MAVIC website states that rims were produced under the Longhi license until 1947, which is a strange patent term. I'm wondering if French patent terms were different or if MAVIC somehow managed to circumvent or nullify the patent? Undoubtedly, the license fees were gnawing away at MAVIC. Reportedly, both MAVIC and Longhi has simultaneously designed similar rims but Longhi's patent application had beaten out MAVIC's by a mere two hours!
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Old 09-28-16, 02:37 PM
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When I purchased my 1974 Follis new, I wanted low flange hubs so I had the shop replace the originals with new wheels built with Fiamme rims which was done before I picked up the bike. I still have one of the rims & the decal & rim is identical to #6.
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Old 02-07-17, 09:16 PM
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Fiamme Yellow label



https://www.dropbox.com/s/emdbfm9hea...label.jpg?dl=0

So it looks like my rims are from the 60's? they are 36hole and are laced on nuovo Tipo high flange hubs.

thank you for building this timeline I was keen to use these rims but am building a 77 Colnago and now I think these are too old.

Carl

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Old 02-08-17, 09:53 AM
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Probably early 70s, but it's tough to tell for sure. They would not be terribly out of place as the older labels had just been replaced in 76. But yeah, square labels if you want to be period correct.

FYI, yellow labels were for race wheels. They are awfully light for everyday riding. If you are over 150, consider red labels or ride carefully.
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Old 02-08-17, 10:49 AM
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Yellow label rims from two different Fiorelli road bikes that were purchased new in 1963 or '64. These bikes were both acquired from the original owner, who related the age to the best of his knowledge.

P1010906.jpg

P1011175.jpg
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Old 02-08-17, 10:50 AM
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Originally Posted by Geekride View Post


https://www.dropbox.com/s/emdbfm9hea...label.jpg?dl=0

So it looks like my rims are from the 60's? they are 36hole and are laced on nuovo Tipo high flange hubs.

thank you for building this timeline I was keen to use these rims but am building a 77 Colnago and now I think these are too old.

Carl
Go for it. These rims were current production through at least 1975. There would have been plenty in stock in shops for the next few years, so it would not be inconceivable to have a 1977 frame wearing a set of wheels with these rims.
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Old 02-08-17, 11:15 AM
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Originally Posted by Geekride View Post


https://www.dropbox.com/s/emdbfm9hea...label.jpg?dl=0

So it looks like my rims are from the 60's? they are 36hole and are laced on nuovo Tipo high flange hubs.

thank you for building this timeline I was keen to use these rims but am building a 77 Colnago and now I think these are too old.

Carl
As Tmar says, go for it. On a previous/above post is a pic of the Fiamme wheels on my '77 Super.
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Old 02-08-17, 11:25 AM
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thanks guys
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Old 02-08-17, 12:22 PM
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I have a pair of #5 from a 1972 Bottecchia Giro D'Italia. Both the hubs and rims looked like they are original to the bike.
[IMG]P1030691 by superissimo_83, on Flickr[/IMG]
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Old 04-17-17, 07:44 AM
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Bought a pair of these back I think either late 70's mid 80's. Was either at Bicyclesport in Toronto or the closeout at Bloor Cycle. I think Bicyclesport and they were both laced to Shimano 333 large flange rear hubs which I disassembled and rebuilt using old 600 hubs. Still have the original hubs....They look like number 5's so my take would be 70's based on the time frame in this list.

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Old 04-17-17, 09:01 AM
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Originally Posted by Niteshooter View Post
Bought a pair of these back I think either late 70's mid 80's. Was either at Bicyclesport in Toronto or the closeout at Bloor Cycle. I think Bicyclesport and they were both laced to Shimano 333 large flange rear hubs which I disassembled and rebuilt using old 600 hubs. Still have the original hubs....They look like number 5's so my take would be 70's based on the time frame in this list.
Not too many companies mixed Shimano 3.3.3 hubs with Fiamme red label tubular rims. One company that did this was CCM, on their 1973-1976 Silver Ghost. So, you may be keeping things in the family.
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Old 04-17-17, 05:29 PM
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I got another set of rims at the Madison swap. Stamped "Fiamme Milano", no decals left with valve eyelets, no spoke eyelets. I estimate these as a late 40s, early 50s rim set.
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Old 04-17-17, 09:48 PM
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Originally Posted by T-Mar View Post
Not too many companies mixed Shimano 3.3.3 hubs with Fiamme red label tubular rims. One company that did this was CCM, on their 1973-1976 Silver Ghost. So, you may be keeping things in the family.
That's pretty cool! Thanks!
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Old 06-20-17, 10:51 PM
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Stumbled on this thread today. What a wealth of information!!!!

I'm hoping someone can help me identify which rim decal I need for a restoration I am doing on my Maserati MT-9.

According to the Maserati sales literature, the bike came with either NISI, FIAMME or San Remo aluminum rims. I'm pretty sure I have the Fiamme rims. However, I can't find a Fiamme Made in Italy stamp anywhere on the rim. As you can see from the attached photo, it appears that the original decal was a football shape (and some color left on the rim appears to be red & yellow). And, also note no eyelets on the rim too. As close as I can figure, the rims should have the yellow decal #K on the photo. Does anyone know what years the style "K" decal covered? I believe the Maserati bikes were all built around 1973-1976.

Any help would be greatly appreciated!

Mike
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Old 06-21-17, 01:57 PM
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cool thread !! cant add anything to it except for the fact that my uncle Mark Trione ordered his !975 Masi GC and specifically asked for Yellow label Ergal on his bike and NOT Martanos and they were happy to oblige.

Jude A
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