DavidW56

Pastorbob, thank you for your advice! And I like your results with your saddle hardware, too! Very nice job.

While we are waiting for the saddle rebuild, as long as I have your attention -- I have another questionable saddle. This is a Sprint I picked up from an online auction (not eBay) last year for not much money. Only after seeing your thread on your coppertone Super Sport last summer did I learn that these were offered on the Varsity in 1964. The question is, how bad off is it? Will a little conditioner be enough? And thank you for your patience, I am not trying to hijack your thread. This is the short Q&A during the intermission until the main reel continues!

rhm

Ummm.... I don't think so. And it varies so.

Ah, yes, thanks for the correction. I have edited my post.

Let's hope Blaise and Tony C contribute their advice on this!

My view is that the leather is in pretty good shape, but is not (was not) strong enough to support the rider by itself. The saddle came with a substrate layer that has cracked and broken; part remains visible. The best way to protect the existing leather is probably to replace that substrate. I'm not sure what the best material for this is; I've seen it done in leather, fabric, and other materials. I'd probably go with leather. You'd have to remove all the rivets, fit the new piece, and rivet it all back together. I suspect the new piece has to be bonded to the old leather somehow (contact cement?), in which case its shape has to conform perfectly to the old leather; so I'm guessing one would first cut the new substrate, complete with the central holes; feather the edges, soak that and the old top in water and form them together over a wooden last; then cement the two together, rivet back into place, and... I think that's it.

Now, hopefully, the experts will correct this method.

DavidW56

Thank you, rhm, for your instructions. I, too, hope the experts will weigh in. One quick question to you: how do I remove and then replace the rivets?

jbkirby

I'm just sitting back an observing...until now. I have an old Brooks B-15 in bad condition due to 40 years of neglect by me, so I hope to learn something since I have nothing to contribute to this thread.

hagen2456

It gets wet from underneath as you say - as well as what seeps in on top.

My best advice for treatment of these old leather saddles is really: as little as possible. IMO they are best when very hard, like Pastorbob says. Very little oil, grease or other softening agents is ever needed. Treat them like a pair of fine shoes: wax. Oh, and don't tighten the screw-thingy under its nose!

You may find that it will be a little difficult to get the exact right angle, though. Perhaps better switch to a more modern bracket/saddle stem.

hagen2456

Looks okay. I'd probably "block" it (I believe that's the term), as it looks kinda hammock'ish: Soak it in water for a couple days, mould it to the shape you wish for, stuff tightly with newspaper. Let dry for a week. Renew wax.

Laurence_13

Forgive me if I'm being extremely stupid here, but can you not put dubbin on the saddles? At least thats what it's called in the UK? Its like a grease you put on leather boots and leather products (i use it for my motorbike gear) and it soaks in and waterproofs it. Is that kind of thing bad for vintage saddles?

pastorbobnlnh 

David,

Guess what? I own a Sprint as well. I needed to lace mine in order to pull the severely splayed skirts back in towards their original shape. Mine looks darker than yours.

BL4zD

I didn't realize this saddle was so valuable. I have the Aluminum frame #90, as well, but unfortunately the leather has a slight tear about one inch forward from the most left rivet in the back. I don't think that can be repaired but I thought about what to do for a long time before splurging on a new Brooks saddle. I've just had the Ideale behind my couch for the past two years. The plate is scuffed to the point where it's hard to read the Ideale name but the Ideale stamp on all of the rivets is perfectly clear and legible. I'll get some pictures up here soon and now I'm wondering about having someone redo the leather...

realestvin7

Subscribing.

hagen2456

I don't wish to seem smart***, but that saddle seems in need of some reshaping so as not to **** up with your private parts.

hagen2456

Well, after Googling "dubbin", I think I can say that it will over-soften your saddles if you apply more than a tiny bit. A saddle is supposed to stay more or less in the shape it was born with, and your sit bones are only supposed to make a smallish indent in it. The saddles with a "ridge" down the middle or the shape of a hammock may appear all right but they will give you problems with your prostata and other private-y parts.

pastorbobnlnh 

Just curious, what do you suggest I do to further reshape the Sprint saddle? It is fairly close to the original shape and is actually quite comfortable. You should have seen it when I bought it. The skirts were almost flat. Significantly more than David's Sprint. Another picture for comparison.

rhm

It is pretty easy to block a saddle, as Hagen described above. You don't need to soak it that long before the leather becomes quite soft and is easily pushed back into the shape it started with. Newspapers underneath keep it in that shape until the leather dries. I have done this with two saddles, and they looked great when I was done. But they both deformed again after a few hours of riding.

DavidW56

Thanks again, guys. I appreciate all the input. But I'm getting a little confused as to whether my saddle needs to soak in water for two days, one, or not at all, now that rhm has testified that the saddle will deform again soon afterwards.

Pastorbob, I did indeed know you have a Sprint, as I did find your thread on it from last summer, which is why I posted my Sprint in this thread. That is a fine-looking saddle you have, not to mention the bike it's mounted on.

Laurence_13

I see thanks, i'd have probably ruined many a good saddle in the future if you hadn't told me that!

hagen2456

Well, it looks to me as if it's got that front-back "ridge" (which is often the result of tightening the screw). This means that you probably don't rest your bum on your sit bones but as much on the soft tissue in between them. That's bad in the sense that it may lead to impotence and other unpleasant stuff. But of course I can't say how that shape works for you - it may be just fine as it is

hagen2456

I can't say if it will work several times with the same saddle, but mine didn't "reshape" itself after one blocking. But perhaps the leather will only take one blocking. Actually, I'll probably find out the next time I ride my Selle Ideale, as I reshaped it after having ridden it in rainy weather, and haven't had the opportunity to use it since. Winter's closing in on us, here...

hagen2456

Happened to me a few years ago with an old Brooks. I practically drowned it in a local equivalent of "dubbin". Thought that was the correct treatment . It became way too soft to work for me. Luckily I was able to sell it to someone who didn't care, though I did warn him about it

blaise_f

The cracks in that Sprint saddle show that it has dried out quite a bit at some point. I doubt it would last a thousand miles of riding, but I've been known to be wrong! A very meticulous person could probably bring it back to life, as the cracks aren't crazy deep.

Saddles can be reformed, but the amount of stretch the leather has gone through will cause it to bounce back in pretty short time. You can get away with reshaping / casing an item that doesn't get so much abuse (bags, shoes, belts, etc).

"Dubbin" is identical to modern day "Sno-seal", and dates back at least 200 years in use. In short, it's a random mixture of beeswax (parafin is a no-no) and animal fat (typically neatsfoot - never petroleum based oil). As with any type of oil or conditioning, a little goes a long way for a bike saddle. Too much + riding = maximum stretch and ruinous outcomes. There's countless stories of people with brand new Brooks saddles in the $200-400 range that felt they needed to Proofide their saddle daily; within a month, the leather was garbage, and Brooks generally lacks sympathy in this reguard.

mkeller234

Hmm... I've been using Sno-seal (sparingly of course). Should I be re-thinking that?

pastorbobnlnh 

Matt, "sparingly" is the key word. Where riders make a mistake, IMO, is when they lather the saddle with Proofide, etc., with the hopes of making a hard leather saddle, soft. The only time I have been "generous" in my application of conditioner, has been when I've found saddles that have not had any in decades, and have not been properly stored.

tony colegrave

The 'road rash' on the Ideale #80 looks more like some sort of weevil damage to me, but, whatever it is, it's unlikely to have done any harm to the integrity of the leather.

So far as the Sprint saddle is concerned, I'd agree that the best idea would be to remove the top and fit a new 'underskin' - my preference would be for a good, strong canvas ('fitted' with warp and weft down and across, not diagonally) rather than leather, which would need to be pretty dense and thick to be of much use.
These Sprint saddles are generally made of a rather poor quality leather, which is not much improved by 'blocking' - not for any length of time, anyway. It might be a good idea to 'block' the leather before fitting the 'underskin', though.
The tubular steel rivets can be removed quite easily and, if this is done carefully, they can sometimes be re-used - if not, the ones used by Brooks on many of their cheaper saddles (and even on the 'Swallows' now, apparently!) would serve well as replacements, and are reasonably easy to fit.

pastorbobnlnh 

Tony,

Do you know who in France made the Sprint Saddles for Scwhinn? Mine has an Ideale seat post clamp that is sized for the small diameter Schwinn post. But with the underskin, I've assumed the saddle was not made by Ideale.

Also, what technique do you suggest for removing the rivets carefully in oder that they might be reused?

Thanks for your insights.

tony colegrave

The vast number of different saddles made in France over the years is largely terra incognita to me, I'm afraid, but Tron et Berthet certainly did make Ideale saddles which correspond very closely to the Schwinn Sprint. That 'underskin', which appears to be a fairly dense sort of cardboard, and the waffle-type impression in the flesh of the leather are features of many Ideale saddles - and not just the cheaper models, either. If I need to convince you of this, you should take a look at the copiously-illustrated #41 disaster that is eBay item 350511738515, currently on offer, which you might think is a 'dead ringer' for the Sprint. That saddle is one of the 'budget' Ideales, but I have several more 'up-market' models which are constructed in the same manner.

To remove the rivets from the original saddle illustrated (which mostly appear to be in good condition) I'd attempt to carefully lift the 'tangs' with a thin-bladed knife or similar and then gently tap the rivets out, using some sort of 'drift' that's thin enough to fit inside the tubular shaft (I use a bluntened masonary nail), being sure to support the area around the heads and protect the leather with some fairly dense padding (I use a 'dogbone' spanner and some 1/4" standard 25W engineering felt). However, in this instance it's obviously more important to preserve the leather rather than the rivets and so, if necessary, you might have to drill them out and replace.