Show us your C&V Gravel Grinders
#276
aka Tom Reingold
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: New York, NY, and High Falls, NY, USA
Posts: 40,418
Bikes: 1962 Rudge Sports, 1971 Raleigh Super Course, 1971 Raleigh Pro Track, 1974 Raleigh International, 1975 Viscount Fixie, 1982 McLean, 1996 Lemond (Ti), 2002 Burley Zydeco tandem
Mentioned: 503 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 7136 Post(s)
Liked 2,082 Times
in
1,238 Posts
Ah yes, I hear great things about that model.
__________________
Tom Reingold, tom@noglider.com
New York City and High Falls, NY
Blogs: The Experienced Cyclist; noglider's ride blog
“When man invented the bicycle he reached the peak of his attainments.” — Elizabeth West, US author
Please email me rather than PM'ing me. Thanks.
Tom Reingold, tom@noglider.com
New York City and High Falls, NY
Blogs: The Experienced Cyclist; noglider's ride blog
“When man invented the bicycle he reached the peak of his attainments.” — Elizabeth West, US author
Please email me rather than PM'ing me. Thanks.
#277
Senior Member
We have lots of great gravel trails in my town, and I usually use my Univega for those.

My old Mongoose commuter bike is probably a little better suited for that sort of riding, but it's not nearly as fun (or as fast).

My old Mongoose commuter bike is probably a little better suited for that sort of riding, but it's not nearly as fun (or as fast).
#278
Senior Member
My newest gravel grinder isn't really C&V, in fact it's a brand new Rawland Stag. But it's a classically designed 650B frame with standard diameter steel tubing, horizontal top tube and French-curved high-rake fork with lugged twin plate Pacenti PBP crown. And it's built up with mostly modern parts but I think it looks pretty classic. I rode the annual D2R2 ride in Western Mass last week on this bike, a mostly dirt road climb fest, and it performs very nicely indeed on gravel!





#279
Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: Oregon
Posts: 105
Bikes: 1974 Raleigh International, 1982 Trek 730, 2006 Co-Motion Americano, 2013 Surly Troll
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 13 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
My newest gravel grinder isn't really C&V, in fact it's a brand new Rawland Stag. But it's a classically designed 650B frame with standard diameter steel tubing, horizontal top tube and French-curved high-rake fork with lugged twin plate Pacenti PBP crown. And it's built up with mostly modern parts but I think it looks pretty classic. I rode the annual D2R2 ride in Western Mass last week on this bike, a mostly dirt road climb fest, and it performs very nicely indeed on gravel!
#281
Senior Member
Unfortunately yes, the bike does shimmy if I ride no hands above 25 mph, but not with at least one hand on the bars. This is not a defect, per se, and it's debatable whether a different headset can make a difference. It's simply a matter of trail, load, tire size and tire pressure. Low trail and fat tires both conspire against a bike to promote shimmy.
I have my own thoughts on headsets and how they may prevent shimmy. And it's not what most people think.
I have my own thoughts on headsets and how they may prevent shimmy. And it's not what most people think.
#282
What??? Only 2 wheels?
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Boston-ish, MA
Posts: 13,451
Bikes: 72 Peugeot UO-8, 82 Peugeot TH8, 87 Bianchi Brava, 76? Masi Grand Criterium, 74 Motobecane Champion Team, 86 & 77 Gazelle champion mondial, 81? Grandis, 82? Tommasini, 83 Peugeot PF10
Mentioned: 189 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1222 Post(s)
Liked 641 Times
in
232 Posts
#284
Senior Member
Oh boy. I'm probably opening a can of worms here. Basically the argument for roller bearing (or needle bearing-- the same thing for this argument's sake) headsets being the cure for shimmy is that they better distribute the load across the bearing contact surface by being able to withstand higher pre-load. This may be true, but I don't buy this argument as the reason for reduced shimmy because any modern cartridge bearing (angular bearing) headset can do a fine job of distributing preload. But if you ask what else helps eliminate shimmy, the typical answers are (1) holding the handlebar, or (2) increasing the front load, like by adding some weight to a handlebar bag. To me, both of these suggest a simple damping affect. So could it be that a roller bearing headset simply introduces more friction resistance (and therefore damping) to rotation of the fork (roller bearings are known to have more friction than angular bearings)? Seems plausible, because several people claim that after installing a roller bearing headset, they feel more resistance to fork rotation, and reduced steering responsiveness. So do you really want increased resistance? Because then you're going to compromise the ability of the steerer to respond to your body's inputs. Seems to me that the solution one problem is the introduction of another. I've also heard that high quality angular bearing headsets (Chris King, Cane Creek, etc) are capable of withstanding higher preloads than lower quality headsets, and since I have a Cane Creek, I will first investigate whether slightly increasing the preload on mine will cause the shimmy to go away without having a noticeable increase in resistance to rotation. If so, problem solved. If not, I may just live with shimmy because in the end it might be less of a problem than reduced steering responsiveness.
Last edited by southpawboston; 08-31-13 at 08:01 PM.
#285
Have bike, will travel
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Lake Geneva, WI
Posts: 12,392
Bikes: Ridley Helium SLX, Canyon Endurance SL, De Rosa Professional, Eddy Merckx Corsa Extra, Schwinn Paramount (1 painted, 1 chrome), Peugeot PX10, Serotta Nova X, Simoncini Cyclocross Special, Raleigh Roker, Pedal Force CG2 and CX2
Mentioned: 46 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 910 Post(s)
Liked 286 Times
in
157 Posts
Oh boy. I'm probably opening a can of worms here. Basically the argument for roller bearing (or needle bearing-- the same thing for this argument's sake) headsets being the cure for shimmy is that they better distribute the load across the bearing contact surface by being able to withstand higher pre-load. This may be true, but I don't buy this argument as the reason for reduced shimmy because any modern cartridge bearing (angular bearing) headset can do a fine job of distributing preload. But if you ask what else helps eliminate shimmy, the typical answers are (1) holding the handlebar, or (2) increasing the front load, like by adding some weight to a handlebar bag. To me, both of these suggest a simple damping affect. So could it be that a roller bearing headset simply introduces more friction resistance (and therefore damping) to rotation of the fork (roller bearings are known to have more friction than angular bearings)? Seems plausible, because several people claim that after installing a roller bearing headset, they feel more resistance to fork rotation, and reduced steering responsiveness. So do you really want increased resistance? Because then you're going to compromise the ability of the steerer to respond to your body's inputs. Seems to me that the solution one problem is the introduction of another. I've also heard that high quality angular bearing headsets (Chris King, Cane Creek, etc) are capable of withstanding higher preloads than lower quality headsets, and since I have a Cane Creek, I will first investigate whether slightly increasing the preload on mine will cause the shimmy to go away without having a noticeable increase in resistance to rotation. If so, problem solved. If not, I may just live with shimmy because in the end it might be less of a problem than reduced steering responsiveness.
Angular or Tapered bearings have a high tolerance for thrust loads and don't bind. However, Angular or Tapered bearings are costly and difficult to install correctly.
Installing a larger diameter bearing is an economical way to use ball bearings in a headset without exceeded the thrust load capacity. Modern bikes are now starting to use larger lower bearings to improve performance.
__________________
When I ride my bike I feel free and happy and strong. I'm liberated from the usual nonsense of day to day life. Solid, dependable, silent, my bike is my horse, my fighter jet, my island, my friend. Together we will conquer that hill and thereafter the world.
When I ride my bike I feel free and happy and strong. I'm liberated from the usual nonsense of day to day life. Solid, dependable, silent, my bike is my horse, my fighter jet, my island, my friend. Together we will conquer that hill and thereafter the world.
#286
Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: Oregon
Posts: 105
Bikes: 1974 Raleigh International, 1982 Trek 730, 2006 Co-Motion Americano, 2013 Surly Troll
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 13 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
Unfortunately yes, the bike does shimmy if I ride no hands above 25 mph, but not with at least one hand on the bars. This is not a defect, per se, and it's debatable whether a different headset can make a difference. It's simply a matter of trail, load, tire size and tire pressure. Low trail and fat tires both conspire against a bike to promote shimmy.
I have my own thoughts on headsets and how they may prevent shimmy. And it's not what most people think.
I have my own thoughts on headsets and how they may prevent shimmy. And it's not what most people think.
In any case, whatever remedy for the shimmy you may find in headset selection/adjustment, isn't it a treatment for the symptom of shimmy, rather than the cause of it?
Apologies for going way off-topic. It's just that this is the second mention of shimmy I have seen in reference to the Stag today. Very interested in experiences with this bike as I am also contemplating a 650b build soon. I do love the classic looks and sensibilities of this machine!
#288
Banned
Join Date: Aug 2013
Posts: 7,150
Mentioned: 93 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1361 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 418 Times
in
278 Posts
My '10 Rapid 1 is my fave do it all ride. Compact road frame and flat bars gives incredible manners and a light enough sub 19 pounder. Its a fast GG! Sometimes it gets racked and fenders for light tour duty but with a little change of set-up, I find the most fun off-road. Shimano 105 group w/ thumbies, short cage rear der. Takes 700 x 34 knobbies by first deflating the tire and then when in the frame, air-up. I cut the handlebars down and depending on the days ride, swap out road drop bar-ends to Icon off-roads. An identical second set of wheels but with the different rubber and gearing makes it a quick ordeal. Most stable at high speed and predictable drifts in high speed downhill curves. Quite a sensation to first overcome but what a riot.







#289
Senior Member
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 6,401
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 11 Times
in
11 Posts
Oh boy. I'm probably opening a can of worms here. Basically the argument for roller bearing (or needle bearing-- the same thing for this argument's sake) headsets being the cure for shimmy is that they better distribute the load across the bearing contact surface by being able to withstand higher pre-load. This may be true, but I don't buy this argument as the reason for reduced shimmy because any modern cartridge bearing (angular bearing) headset can do a fine job of distributing preload. But if you ask what else helps eliminate shimmy, the typical answers are (1) holding the handlebar, or (2) increasing the front load, like by adding some weight to a handlebar bag. To me, both of these suggest a simple damping affect. So could it be that a roller bearing headset simply introduces more friction resistance (and therefore damping) to rotation of the fork (roller bearings are known to have more friction than angular bearings)? Seems plausible, because several people claim that after installing a roller bearing headset, they feel more resistance to fork rotation, and reduced steering responsiveness. So do you really want increased resistance? Because then you're going to compromise the ability of the steerer to respond to your body's inputs. Seems to me that the solution one problem is the introduction of another. I've also heard that high quality angular bearing headsets (Chris King, Cane Creek, etc) are capable of withstanding higher preloads than lower quality headsets, and since I have a Cane Creek, I will first investigate whether slightly increasing the preload on mine will cause the shimmy to go away without having a noticeable increase in resistance to rotation. If so, problem solved. If not, I may just live with shimmy because in the end it might be less of a problem than reduced steering responsiveness.
#290
Expired Member
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: TN
Posts: 11,329
Mentioned: 37 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3582 Post(s)
Liked 5,167 Times
in
2,624 Posts
Six Jours- could you provide a model and possibly a source for the Tange headset you like? thanks
#291
Senior Member
I have long suspected that increased friction is the reason that needle bearing headsets can often help a shimmy problem. But that friction is not at all noticeable as such, and is not a "problem" in the least. If it is noticeable, you either are using a poor quality headset (I despise the Velo Orange offering) or have not installed it correctly.
Also, why the dislike of the VO unit? Any opinion on the Miche unit?
#292
What??? Only 2 wheels?
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Boston-ish, MA
Posts: 13,451
Bikes: 72 Peugeot UO-8, 82 Peugeot TH8, 87 Bianchi Brava, 76? Masi Grand Criterium, 74 Motobecane Champion Team, 86 & 77 Gazelle champion mondial, 81? Grandis, 82? Tommasini, 83 Peugeot PF10
Mentioned: 189 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1222 Post(s)
Liked 641 Times
in
232 Posts
Thanks for the shimmy description, spb. Interesting. I've never seen nor ever worked out the physics of front-end shimmy but I know enough about oscillating systems to hazard a guess that it occurs when two or more degrees of freedom have similar resonant frequencies. There are a number of possibilities here, too many to analyze without doing serious work (which I won't do!) and without data. Adding friction would certainly dampen oscillations, perhaps enough to help. It should also broaden the resonance frequency, FWIW.
__________________
Real cyclists use toe clips.
With great bikes comes great responsibility.
jimmuller
Real cyclists use toe clips.
With great bikes comes great responsibility.
jimmuller
#293
Ride, Wrench, Swap, Race
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Northern California
Posts: 8,998
Bikes: Cheltenham-Pedersen racer, Boulder F/S Paris-Roubaix, Varsity racer, '52 Christophe, '62 Continental, '92 Merckx, '75 Limongi, '76 Presto, '72 Gitane SC, '71 Schwinn SS, etc.
Mentioned: 131 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1485 Post(s)
Liked 1,162 Times
in
786 Posts
Tapered roller bearings introduce rubbing friction from the big ends of the rollers rubbung against the inner raceway's retaining flange (the turned-up edge that prevents the rolles from moving away from the steerer's centerline).
The rollers in a Stronglight headset aren't tapered, so one source of friction appears to be removed, especially as these needle rollers are smaller in diameter and any friction (with the bearing retainer cage in this case) at their ends is acting on a smaller radius about the needle's centerline.
BUT, the needles rotate faster because of their smaller diameter, AND they scrub along the races because of the diametral difference of the races where the two ends of each roller make contact.
Thus, any needle roller headset with straight rollers (rollers themselves not tapered) shows increased friction as the steering movements exceed a minute movement in either direction. Very small movements however do not immediately introduce this scrub friction as there is a bit of freeplay between each roller and each corresponding slot in the retainer cage.
So indeed, a Stronglight needle-roller headset can show a noticeable increase in steering effort even as the straight-ahead steering feel is identical to that of a good ball-bearing headset.
The rollers in a Stronglight headset aren't tapered, so one source of friction appears to be removed, especially as these needle rollers are smaller in diameter and any friction (with the bearing retainer cage in this case) at their ends is acting on a smaller radius about the needle's centerline.
BUT, the needles rotate faster because of their smaller diameter, AND they scrub along the races because of the diametral difference of the races where the two ends of each roller make contact.
Thus, any needle roller headset with straight rollers (rollers themselves not tapered) shows increased friction as the steering movements exceed a minute movement in either direction. Very small movements however do not immediately introduce this scrub friction as there is a bit of freeplay between each roller and each corresponding slot in the retainer cage.
So indeed, a Stronglight needle-roller headset can show a noticeable increase in steering effort even as the straight-ahead steering feel is identical to that of a good ball-bearing headset.
#294
Senior Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Scottsdale, AZ
Posts: 4,466
Bikes: many
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 18 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 14 Times
in
13 Posts
My '10 Rapid 1 is my fave do it all ride. Compact road frame and flat bars gives incredible manners and a light enough sub 19 pounder. Its a fast GG! Sometimes it gets racked and fenders for light tour duty but with a little change of set-up, I find the most fun off-road. Shimano 105 group w/ thumbies, short cage rear der. Takes 700 x 34 knobbies by first deflating the tire and then when in the frame, air-up. I cut the handlebars down and depending on the days ride, swap out road drop bar-ends to Icon off-roads. An identical second set of wheels but with the different rubber and gearing makes it a quick ordeal. Most stable at high speed and predictable drifts in high speed downhill curves. Quite a sensation to first overcome but what a riot.








#295
Hopelessly addicted...
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Central Maryland
Posts: 5,007
Bikes: 1949 Hercules Kestrel, 1950 Norman Rapide, 1970 Schwinn Collegiate, 1972 Peugeot UE-8, 1976 Raleigh Sports, 1977 Raleigh Sports, 1977 Jack Taylor Tandem, 1984 Davidson Tandem, 2010 Bilenky "BQ" 650B Constructeur Tandem, 2011 Linus Mixte
Mentioned: 13 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 9 Times
in
8 Posts
Here's what I'm using for gravel road exploration. It has modern geometry (73°-ish) but fork rake that would make a French builder blush. I have found this bicycle to be stable no matter the surface it is on, yet still fast enough for me. It just plain works and takes all challenges I throw its way. At the moment I am running Grand Bois Cypres tires which measure 31mm wide on Velocity Synergy rims. I have rode this on various gravel/dirt roads in the past and only yesterday took it for a 40 mile ride about half of which was dirt roads. If I could have only one bicycle, there is no doubt in my mind that this would be it.

Norman Rapide on a Sunny Sunday - 1 by Sallad Rialb, on Flickr

Norman Rapide on a Sunny Sunday - 2 by Sallad Rialb, on Flickr

Norman Rapide on a Sunny Sunday - 4 by Sallad Rialb, on Flickr

Norman Rapide on a Sunny Sunday - 1 by Sallad Rialb, on Flickr

Norman Rapide on a Sunny Sunday - 2 by Sallad Rialb, on Flickr

Norman Rapide on a Sunny Sunday - 4 by Sallad Rialb, on Flickr
#297
Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Middle Earth (aka IA)
Posts: 20,470
Bikes: A bunch of old bikes and a few new ones
Mentioned: 178 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5863 Post(s)
Liked 3,393 Times
in
2,038 Posts
I ride my 1993 Bridgestone XO-2. I built it up from a frame with parts I had in my parts bin. I'm running shimano 105 7 speed derailleurs and the wheels are built around suntour cyclone sealed hubs. The one odd choice was the stronglight 99 crank I guess but it is such a beautiful lightweight crank and I had an english threaded stronglight BB to go with it. The bike was originally designed to be a do everything bike. I really like the combination of road geometry and 26 inch wheels:




Last edited by bikemig; 03-22-16 at 05:21 AM.
#298
Senior Member
I bought it new in 1993. I wanted a CX bike for the fall and didn't have the money to buy one so re-purposed this one. It was a Mongoose Rockadile SX. The frame was getting pretty beat so stripped and powder coated it. Went to a solid chromoly fork, from 3X7 to 3X8 gearing, and friction/index shifters to Alivo rapid fires. Going with the 8 speed gearing I was able to keep it pretty inexpensive. I was tempted to go to a single ring up front but figured the triple is already there so why not ride it.
#299
Senior Member
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 6,401
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 11 Times
in
11 Posts
It's called the G-Master and has been out of production for years. I occasionally see them pop on on Ebay and they don't seem to be garnering serious collector attention yet...
#300
Senior Member
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 6,401
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 11 Times
in
11 Posts
That's good to know, six jours. I wonder if it's worth trying to increase the preload on my existing Cane Creek unit or just scrap it and swap it out for a roller bearing unit. I happen to have a Miche roller bearing unit that I bought at the same time as the Cane Creek, but I had heard mixed reviews of it, so I installed the Cane Creek instead.
Also, why the dislike of the VO unit? Any opinion on the Miche unit?
Also, why the dislike of the VO unit? Any opinion on the Miche unit?
I have heard one report on the Miche unit, and it was reasonably good. Apparently it does what it's supposed to without drama. I don't have any personal experience with it, though.
The two V/O units I tried both had a serious binding problem. No matter what I tried, and which bikes I tried with them, I could not get them to run freely across more than 20 degrees or so. Normally when this happens I assume that I screwed up the installation or that the frame is introducing misalignment, but between two different units and six different frames (all of which work fine with other headsets) it's obvious that the V/O units just aren't held to acceptable tolerances. I hope it was just bad luck or a bad run or something - I am generally a fan of Velo Orange - but I'm done with that model of headset.