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Old 02-08-12, 07:20 PM   #1
pstock
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vintage frame / new wheels mismatch

Did something happen to wheels in the last 15 years (Hello Ignorance!)

I sold a fellow a quite nice vintage Colnago Olympic Master frame but when he got home he found that his new wheels (last 2 years apparently though I didn't see them) would not fit the frame. So I took the frame back and refunded him, of course.

But now I am trying to figure this out. Because at one time this bike was complete with fairly standard if old Mavic 700 rimmed wheels. (though I cannot put my hands on the exact wheelset now.)

Once back in my hands all my (admittedly older style) wheelsets seem to fit pretty well (though I haven't built it all back up to see if modern brakes reach or not.)
There is about a half inch space in the rear (to the brake mount and about 1/3 inch in the front.

Did something happen to frame and wheel geometry in the last 15 years which would make it impossible/difficult to build up a classic steel frame with newer components and wheels?
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Last edited by pstock; 02-08-12 at 09:31 PM.
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Old 02-08-12, 07:43 PM   #2
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Space between the dropouts keeps getting wider and brakes keep getting shorter.
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Old 02-08-12, 07:49 PM   #3
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Did the guy how the wheels didn't fit???
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Old 02-08-12, 07:52 PM   #4
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Buyers remorse.
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Old 02-08-12, 08:10 PM   #5
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Originally Posted by dbakl View Post
Space between the dropouts keeps getting wider and brakes keep getting shorter.
Exactly. That's why it's nearly mpossible to buy wheels with 126mm spacing and freewheel. My local LBS insists my 85 Raleigh has 130mm spacing. Yeah right, I wish!
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Old 02-08-12, 09:26 PM   #6
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It wasn't rear dropout spacing (I don't think. though I should now double check) I think it was more the diameter of the wheel not fitting the rear triangle.

Basic (yea yea "naive") question is : Say I bust a 2 year old Cervelo aluminum or carbon frame. Should I be able to strip it and reinstall everything (components, wheels) on a late 80s Colnago Olympic Master (or similar)? if not, which bits would cause me the problems?
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Old 02-08-12, 09:29 PM   #7
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Very nice for you to take the frame back.

Buyer's remorse.
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Old 02-08-12, 09:40 PM   #8
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Never heard of this. 700C wheels sold today are the same diameter as those decades ago.

His loss.
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Old 02-08-12, 11:11 PM   #9
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If he was telling the truth (debatable) he must have been trying to put more than about a 25 mm tire on it. A 28 probably wouldn't fit, or would perhaps fit but with near-zero clearance in one or more locations.
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Old 02-09-12, 06:37 AM   #10
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Hey Guy's, I bought the frame and believe me it was not buyers remorse. I tried to fit a set of 2009 Campy Eurus wheels on first and then a set of Shimano R500 from my new 2011 Cervelo. The front fit with very little room ( See picture from OP, his tire is not fully inflated ) and the back wheel would not fit at all when inflated. Rear spacing is not the issue, it's the wheel clearance.

If I wanted to return the frame the OP was kind enough to give me a window to take the frame home look it over and if I had any second thoughts to bring it back, so this is not an excuse to return the frame.

It's a beautiful bike and no question it's my loss, I have been looking for one for a long time. It's disappointing because I was very much looking forward to this build project. I can't say enough about how well the OP has been with regards to the transaction.
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Old 02-09-12, 07:10 AM   #11
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Obviously his wheels were built to the old millimeter standard while your frame was built with the new smaller, lighter, more efficient millimeters 2.0. Most people aren't aware of it but as part of a global economization effort the millimeter was reduced by 0.5% in 2006. The result is that anything built before 2006 is incompatible with anything built after. (Things built in 2006 used a transitional millimeter that was only 0.25% smaller.) It was part of the same effort that dictated the common wheel size should be called 622 instead of 700c in order to save 25% of the typing and storage bytes. People even found that new clothes no longer fit like they used to, so when buying new they had to go to larger sizes.

The bicycle industry tried to get around the issue simply by dropping the larger 27" wheel in favor of the 700c, err, I mean the 622. But ISO officials discovered the ruse in 2009 and forced the millimeter 2.0 changeover by threatening to make the British, the Italians, and the Japanese accept the French BB standard. As a compromise they were allowed to drop the ISO square taper standard, but that was soon going to be a dead-end technology anyway.
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Old 02-09-12, 07:22 AM   #12
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^Really???? I missed that.

I thought global warming may be causing the metal to expand faster than rubber.
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Old 02-09-12, 07:35 AM   #13
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.... People even found that new clothes no longer fit like they used to, so when buying new they had to go to larger sizes.....
^ Thanks, Jim - That explains a lot. (And here I was thinking it was me. )
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Old 02-09-12, 07:38 AM   #14
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This constant devaluation of the millimeter is why I believe all bike frames should be listed in parsecs. My 1.87965E-17 frames have not changed in since the day they were manufactured.
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Old 02-09-12, 07:46 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by simmer7 View Post
Hey Guy's, I bought the frame and believe me it was not buyers remorse. I tried to fit a set of 2009 Campy Eurus wheels on first and then a set of Shimano R500 from my new 2011 Cervelo. The front fit with very little room ( See picture from OP, his tire is not fully inflated ) and the back wheel would not fit at all when inflated. Rear spacing is not the issue, it's the wheel clearance.

If I wanted to return the frame the OP was kind enough to give me a window to take the frame home look it over and if I had any second thoughts to bring it back, so this is not an excuse to return the frame.

It's a beautiful bike and no question it's my loss, I have been looking for one for a long time. It's disappointing because I was very much looking forward to this build project. I can't say enough about how well the OP has been with regards to the transaction.
Thats no reason to reaturn the frame. Just get a different set of wheels for it.

The issue was your wheel set, not his frame. If I were the seller, you would still own that frame set.
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Old 02-09-12, 08:26 AM   #16
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The seller has a return policy, so returning the frame was not an issue. I did not make up the wheel story to get my money back.

All of you are entitled to your opinion an that's fine.

As stated before the OP has been terrific.
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Old 02-09-12, 09:09 AM   #17
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I would like to see this photo with air in the tires. Just curious.

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Old 02-09-12, 09:16 AM   #18
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something about Colnago Precisa forks

"( See picture from OP, his tire is not fully inflated )" for the record, I had actually reinflated the front tire before taking that snapshot. what I wish I had done was to try Buyer's wheels on some other frames.

A little further investigation this morning has been revealing.
I happen to have three (count 'em 3) sets of straight Colnago forks ("Precisa" I think?) and measuring from the center of the front brake bolt hole to the center of the dropout is about 35.5-35.7cm.
All my other forks measure 36.5cm to 37cm.
So, this might be a Colnago thing or at least something unique about their Precisa straight forks.
But the fact that all three Colnago Precisa forks measure the exact same slightly shorter dimension is interesting and says this is standard Colnago design.

Furthermore, I slipped a newish Mavic Ksyrium front wheel (fully inflated) on the Colnago and it seems to fit fine.
Attached photos here are the Ksyrium on the Colnago and on an old-style Guerciotti. there is definitely more clearance on the Guerciotti but the Colnago/Mavic setup seems would work fine too.

So new question then: Why would Colnago make their forks slightly shorter than standard.

In any event, no hard feelings at all. The Buyer is absolutely correct that I offered him (as I do all buyers) a money back no questions asked guarantee. Someone else will happily take this frameset I am sure.

And I enjoy meeting the people I do through these dealings and learning about bike stuff as I do through this forum.

I just wanted to try to understand what was going on.
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File Type: jpg P1010059.jpg (86.4 KB, 22 views)
File Type: jpg P1010060.jpg (94.7 KB, 22 views)

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Old 02-09-12, 09:32 AM   #19
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Its a nice frame. I almost bought one of those when new. What is the size and price, if I might ask?
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Old 02-09-12, 09:34 AM   #20
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I would like to see this photo with air in the tires. Just curious.
actually that was a fully inflated tubular. (well to about 70 psi anyway. I was rushed.)
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Old 02-09-12, 10:08 AM   #21
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I'm still not seeing an issue. Front wheel clearance is still there - it's not like there's any movement (shock absorber style) once the wheel is secured. And in the rear - the buyer states his wheels won't fit. Once again in the pictures ther's clearance. Where was it "not fitting"? If the tire was hitting one chainstay only, then that may mean when spreading the stays from 126 to 130 that one stay is moving more than the other. But brake clearance? Looks like my modern frames both front and rear.
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Old 02-09-12, 10:20 AM   #22
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I guess buyer's tires are larger profile than tubulars.
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Old 02-09-12, 03:45 PM   #23
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here's a 650 setup. difference seems apparent.

Buyer actually found a picture of a similar frame but made for 650 wheels. but to my eyes, its (the 650) brake bridge position seems far lower on the frame (and obviously so) even taking into account the different sizes of the frame.

so no I don't think it was originally for 650s

and I loaned this bike out as a complete several times. I think I would have noticed if the wheels were significantly smaller. That's 2 full inches smaller wheels, right?
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