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new sealed cartridge bb for iso cranks?

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new sealed cartridge bb for iso cranks?

Old 02-09-12, 03:45 AM
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eschlwc
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new sealed cartridge bb for iso cranks?

hi, folks. well i purchased a shimano un55 bb for my old sugino crankset, but the new square taper spindle doesn't fit quite as far into the crank as the original. i must have missed the fine print concerning jis vs iso.

the old spindle is 113mm, fitting into a 68mm english bike's shell.
now i'm not exactly sure of the model sugino cranks:
- 1971 english bike
- drive side crank reads 47-10
- 171mm arm length
- original 52/42 chainrings read 'mighty competition.'

question: so (1) can i find a sealed cartridge bb (under $40) that fits this crankset perfectly, or (2) should i clean up the old bb and repack it, or (3) should i just buy a jis spindle that is shorter than the 113mm iso length?

if you favor the first option, what are my choices? if you favor this third, what length do you subtract from the original spindle length to find the right chainline, and is this a workable/popular solution?

thanks for listening and educating...

ps: if you're in seattle and need a 113mm shimano un55 and feel pity ...
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Old 02-09-12, 04:26 AM
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Velobase does confirm that the early 70s Mighty Comp crank fits an ISO taper.

Miche Primato bottom brackets have ISO tapers. I can only find 110 or 115 spindle lengths, so you could possibly add spacers to the drive side or get the longer spindle. Here is a 68x110 for $23.96 https://www.amazon.com/Miche-Primato-...8782981&sr=8-1

Is this what your cranks look like?
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Old 02-09-12, 04:50 AM
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that's it! although the chainrings are different, i have the exact same sugino cranks on both bikes (71 falcon, 75 mb gr). must have been pretty popular...
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Old 02-09-12, 05:39 AM
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i think there was a time there when just about ALL cranks looked like those, which were copies of Campy cranks of the same era, i guess. i know my dura-ace are similar and i've seen superbe cranks that look just like that too. i think SR had a version. not that it has been uncommon since for component manufacturers to copy campy designs...
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Old 02-09-12, 05:56 AM
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Campy Veloce ISO BB in 111mm or 115mm (triple) for under $40.

Is there something wrong with the original BB?
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Old 02-09-12, 01:02 PM
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nothing wrong with the original. i was just informed that since i was rebuilding the bike from scratch, that i should go ahead and replace the separate cubs wih a sealed design. it's a bit more complicated than previously expected. from what i've read, i expected the practice of using a jis sealed bb for an iso crank to be a common one. maybe not, and that makes me think i should now reinstall the old sugino bb...
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Old 02-09-12, 01:41 PM
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Originally Posted by eschlwc View Post
nothing wrong with the original. i was just informed that since i was rebuilding the bike from scratch, that i should go ahead and replace the separate cubs wih a sealed design. it's a bit more complicated than previously expected. from what i've read, i expected the practice of using a jis sealed bb for an iso crank to be a common one. maybe not, and that makes me think i should now reinstall the old sugino bb...
By a parts store?

I'd go with option #2 from your first post if the races aren't pitted. I use this process, and although a little messy, it isn't nearly as difficult as it sounds from reading! Use "sticky" grease like Park's for sure: https://www.sheldonbrown.com/tooltips/bbadj.html

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Old 02-09-12, 03:36 PM
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Here is Sheldon's take on the matter.
https://sheldonbrown.com/bbtaper.html
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Old 02-09-12, 03:52 PM
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Golly, that seems, like, OLD FASHIONED...can I use a LASER?!? Balls falling out and rolling around the floor IS the way it's supposed to work isn't it?
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Old 02-09-12, 04:19 PM
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Is the chainline so terribly off that a few mm will make a difference? I'd say if there is nothing visibly wrong with the old BB and the bearing surfaces look okay, then just clean and repack it. Sealed units may be a great idea (for convenience I put one in a Bianchi I rebuilt) but old-style BBs will run for a logn time too if kept clean and lub'ed.

Hold onto that UN55. I don't know what length you got but if you hang around C&V long enough you will eventually get another bike and find you need it! Or send it to me. I have another bike which will need a BB when I get around to building it.
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Old 02-09-12, 05:14 PM
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Originally Posted by RubberLegs View Post
Golly, that seems, like, OLD FASHIONED...can I use a LASER?!? Balls falling out and rolling around the floor IS the way it's supposed to work isn't it?
Normally I'd assume such a comment is a joke, but just in case ... keeping the balls from falling on the floor after you've cleaned them and while they have grease on them, or from running under washing machines, or down bathroom sinks, or becoming attractive to your cat who lives to bat stuff around on the floor, are all part of the craft of bike mechanics, why it needs some mechanical skill and imagination beyond looking at some pics and twiddling the ol' sockets just as fast as you can. But just in case, count how many balls come out of each side before you drop any, and see if you can measure their diameter. Then once a few have gone down the sink, you'll know what to buy at the local hardware store. Rest assured your hardware buys WILL NOT KNOW what the right ball size is for that Sugino crankset with a curiously mismatched BB. And yes, it IS old-fashioned, done the same way bike nuts handled their bearings probably since 1880 or so. Working with your hands can actually be quite tricky.

Rant mode off!

And the old ones can easily serve you for another 20 years if you don't let wear get to the point of pitting - pits in bearing races are, well, the pits, because the bearing is then guaranteed to be not far from total failure, as in lockup.
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Old 02-09-12, 05:18 PM
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If the old BB spindle and cups aren't seriously pitted you should be able to get a good amount of miles out of it by replacing the bearings and using it. If it starts to crap out then look into getting a new BB IMO.
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Old 02-09-12, 06:29 PM
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thanks, gentlemen. i'm now going to replace the original bb using a laser and new shiny balls. if any of you have actually installed one of these jis sealed bbs for use with an iso crankset, i'd like to hear more about it. here's to sticky grease.
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Old 02-09-12, 10:52 PM
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Token/Origin 8 have ISO taper BBs as well...can be had from cheap to CF/Ti.
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Old 02-10-12, 02:31 PM
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thanks, mark. couldn't find a token in the right width, but there are a few origin8 cartridges out there in my price range. might pick one up just in case. i could probably install the origin8 and sell the original spindle for a few dollars more ... maybe. it's hard building a decent vintage bike on the cheap...
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Old 02-10-12, 03:07 PM
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"it's hard building a decent vintage bike on the cheap..."

One word (well, two): Donor bikes.

Also, the ISO/Trade thread here is a pretty awesome resource to track down bits and bobs that can otherwise add up if you pay retail.
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Old 02-10-12, 03:16 PM
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One never knows when cracking open an old BB just what one will find...and chasing down the balls that get away IS a major nuisance! Recently got (and stripped) a rustbucket that the crank was seized on it! The ball cage had rusted apart and wedged itself in the bearing...NOT good. If I can, I open those critters on a piece of cardboard with the edges turned up...no escapees that way!
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Old 02-10-12, 03:23 PM
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upon further searching, token iso cartridges come only in 102 and 111 lengths, and origin8 iso bbs come only in 111 and 115mm lengths. maybe a 111 or 115 woould work as a substitute for a 113mm spindle. i'll just put the old sugino back in there.

jeirvine, yeah i thought about buying a donor bike, stripping it and then selling the frame. just couldn't find one to fit my needs. campy stuff comes at a cost you can't really work around. it's ok though. this old english bike i'm building is worth it. i'm not worth it, but the bike will be.
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Old 02-10-12, 03:27 PM
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Originally Posted by WNG View Post
Campy Veloce ISO BB in 111mm or 115mm (triple) for under $40.

Is there something wrong with the original BB?
I used one of these recently. It's very nice. The spindle length is 115, and the recommended length for the crankset was 113 (Campy NR). Everything works fine. Go for it.
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Old 02-10-12, 03:31 PM
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I'm running a Stronglight 93 (iso taper) on a JIS cartridge unit with no problems in a couple years. I can no longer remember the length I used but I think it's 4mm shorter than spec. Consult the Sheldon Brown article below to check my memory.
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Old 02-11-12, 02:23 AM
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gentlemen, good info. due ruote, i'm glad that solution is working for you. but if i buy another, i think i will prefer going with a longer iso taper as lostarchitect describes (115mm vs the 113mm original spindle). just seems a little wrong with a jis taper not fitting all the way in the crank. and what's 2mm among friends?
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Old 02-11-12, 06:15 AM
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Originally Posted by Road Fan View Post
Normally I'd assume such a comment is a joke, but just in case ... keeping the balls from falling on the floor after you've cleaned them and while they have grease on them, or from running under washing machines, or down bathroom sinks, or becoming attractive to your cat who lives to bat stuff around on the floor, are all part of the craft of bike mechanics, why it needs some mechanical skill and imagination beyond looking at some pics and twiddling the ol' sockets just as fast as you can.

I need to be warned next time thanks, I almost shot coffee everywhere..
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Old 02-11-12, 06:39 AM
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When I am working with loose ball BB's & Head sets I always use a magnet to keep things from getting away from me, from the time I pull it apart to installations it keeps everything right where I need them. The magnet I use is the same one I would use if I dropped one and it rolled under/down somewhere it shouldn't be, as for the cat well your on your own there good luck getting them back.

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Old 02-11-12, 06:43 AM
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I'm in the middle of a bike conversion which includes different cranks and BB.

The original equipment was a Sugino double 110BCD (drilled for a triple with 74BCD granny) and a Sugino traditional BB. Interestingly, the bearings are locked in place with a sort of "dust" cover (think reversed cover used on hubs). I tried to gently pry the covers out for ease of cleaning the bearings, but since both sides would not yield, I left them be. First time I've encountered this set up.

I'll take some pictures and post a little later today.
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Old 02-11-12, 08:36 AM
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Originally Posted by Glennfordx4 View Post
When I am working with loose ball BB's & Head sets I always use a magnet to keep things from getting away from me, from the time I pull it apart to installations it keeps everything right where I need them. The magnet I use is the same one I would use if I dropped one and it rolled under/down somewhere it shouldn't be, as for the cat well your on your own there good luck getting them back.

Glenn
I use a strong magnet on a telescoping handle to poll balls from races and to retrieve dropped balls from the floor, but those balls go in the trash. I never reuse balls. They cost pennies when purchased in bags of 100, so I'm not going broke o them. Once the balls have been magnetized, they will pick up and hold microscopic bits of metal that I don't want in my bearings.
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