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Difficult Downshifting on Wide-Range SunTour Perfect Freewheel

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Difficult Downshifting on Wide-Range SunTour Perfect Freewheel

Old 02-28-12, 07:57 AM
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Phil_gretz
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Difficult Downshifting on Wide-Range SunTour Perfect Freewheel

Thanks for reading this. Some terminology: Downshifting to me is going to a lower gear. So, on the rear, this is shifting from a smaller to a larger freewheel cog.

Here's the background: 1981 Fuji Royale, found with Sansin hub and 6-speed freewheel. Front chainrings are 52/42. SunTour VGT-Luxe derailleur and SunTour very wide range 14-34T Perfect freewheel, SunTour ratcheting bar end shifters, new teflon lined cable housings. Cables taut and adjustment screws set correctly. The B-screw on the VGT-Luxe permits the cage to more than reach the 34T range comfortably - there are no conflict issues with the derailleur capacity and the setup (although the 52-42 + 34-14 totals 30 teeth).

The freewheel is the strangest thing. I don't have it in front of me, but the cogs are something like 14, 17, 20, 26, 30, 34. You can see the gap between the 3rd and 4th cog, it's large.

Here's the problem: Shifting down from the 5th (17T) to the 4th (20T) is impossible to do. The derailleur grinds, chatters, and eventually jumps to the larger 3rd (26T) directly from the 5th. Then, I can easily upshift from the 26T back to the 20T. So, to get to the 4th cog from the 5th, I have to go 5 > 3 > 4.

Otherwise, the sifting is just fine. Is is just that I haven't found the "spot" where the 20T will catch BEFORE it wants to jump to the next larger cog? I know that these older SunTours aren't beveled or twisted to assist in shifts, and that's part of it.

Does this make sense? I'm about to scrap the freewheel, although it is cool looking for sure.

Thanks for any insights.

Phil G.
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Old 02-28-12, 08:06 AM
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I'd check the freewheel without the chain on it for any slop or play and to make sure the rotation is smooth.

Have you tried putting another freewheel on to make sure the freewheel is the issue?

Other things to check would be derailleur alignment (make sure the hanger isn't bent at all) and check the hub to make sure everything looks intact there. The only time I remember having a lot of trouble getting good friction shifting with a VxGT Luxe and a suntour freewheel was when the high flange rear hub had cracked and part of the spoke holder area had broken and I hadn't noticed it yet.
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Old 02-28-12, 08:18 AM
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Sounds like a bad D-screw angle. Sometimes it's a catch-22, you need to open the D-screw nagle to get inot low gear but that larger angle is too much of an angle for other gears. How's the upper jockey wheel pulley? Any slop in it?
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Old 02-28-12, 08:26 AM
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Good Feedback So Far

1) Swap Freewheel - I do have a 5-speed fairly wide range SunTour freewheel that I could pop on there. I'll try it just to verify derailleur performance.

2) Derailleur Alignment - This frame has an integral hanger forged into the dropout. To my eye, the alignment appear to be plumb and in plane. Derailleur pulleys are in plane with the individual cogs (but that's only to the accuracy that my eye can perceive).

3) B-Screw - This could be something to change. I set it once, maybe I can move the pulley closer to the freewheel by a small bit.

4) Play in the pulley - not so much. It's not like an indexed shimano jockey, with a sliding ferrule/bushing for slop. I'll have to check it again.

So, you've given me some things to try tonight.

Thanks so far.
Phil
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Old 02-28-12, 08:35 AM
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If the 4th cog is middle-ish in the cluster, isn't there a good chance that it's gamey from most-use out of the cogs? How about flipping it over or throwing a replacement cog of the same tooth# in there?

Hate for it to be alignment issues with the frame.
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Old 02-28-12, 08:50 AM
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Maybe So

Originally Posted by jebensch View Post
If the 4th cog is middle-ish in the cluster, isn't there a good chance that it's gamey from most-use out of the cogs? How about flipping it over or throwing a replacement cog of the same tooth# in there?

Hate for it to be alignment issues with the frame.
You're right, jebensch, there's a chance that this was the most used cog. This is because of the wide jump to the next one. It's tough to tell by just looking as wear can be deceptive. I've never disassembled a freewheel (read about it, though, but not the same). I'd really like to go a little bigger to "smooth" out the jump, maybe have it be 17-21-26 instead of 17-20-26.

Let me try a few of the other things (above) before going this step. Thanks, though.
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Old 02-28-12, 09:06 AM
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+1, sounds like it's related to the 20T cog itself, most likely wear.
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Old 02-28-12, 10:04 AM
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How Do I Do It?

Originally Posted by T-Mar View Post
+1, sounds like it's related to the 20T cog itself, most likely wear.
Okay. I've used two chain whips to remove the outer UniGlide smallest cog that serves as the lockring for a 7-speed older Shimano cassette. Is the concept the same, that the outer four cogs will be threaded right-hand onto the freewheel body? So, I grab one of them, say the 3rd one (out from inside) with one chain whip, then grab the outer (6th) one in an opposite way, so that I loosen the outer one by rotating it counterclockwise relative to the inner one? Will they just thread off?

If so, I'd just need to find a SunTour Perfect 21-tooth cog and thread it in place of the suspect 20T. Re-thread everthing and tighten with chain whip gently. Riding will do the rest of the tightening. Do I have it?
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Old 02-28-12, 12:26 PM
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You could also check the spacing between the cogs. If the cog sizes seem like some funky home-made arrangement, then maybe the person who set it up didn't get the spacing quite right.
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Old 02-28-12, 12:34 PM
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Spacing

Originally Posted by kroozer View Post
You could also check the spacing between the cogs. If the cog sizes seem like some funky home-made arrangement, then maybe the person who set it up didn't get the spacing quite right.
I'll check it. According to Sheldon's site, it's ~5.5 mm for standard 6, which I think that this should be. Thanks.
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Old 03-05-12, 01:19 AM
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This is an exact symptom of having the 20t cog reversed.

The beveling is different on each side of the cog, so flipping it over causes it to "reject" the chain, which then engages the next sprocket over.

I had this exact issue recently on a customer's vintage Marinoni. Replacing the FW instantly fixed it, but I investigated the existing fw just because it was sooo strange. Once I noticed that the cog had been reversed, I knew instantly what the fix was.

So, moral of story, don't reverse Suntour freewheel sprockets. The "sharp" side of the sprocket must face outward or downshifting won't want to happen at all.

The OP didn't mention which chain was used. I've had best results on all Suntour freewheels using Shimano 9-sp chains. Easy, fast, forgiving and quiet shifting is the result.
Don't forget to lube the shift lever pivot.
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Old 03-05-12, 01:29 AM
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The only time I remember having a lot of trouble getting good friction shifting with a VxGT Luxe and a suntour freewheel was when the high flange rear hub had cracked and part of the spoke holder area had broken and I hadn't noticed it yet.
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Old 03-05-12, 12:10 PM
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Originally Posted by Phil_gretz View Post
Okay. I've used two chain whips to remove the outer UniGlide smallest cog that serves as the lockring for a 7-speed older Shimano cassette. Is the concept the same, that the outer four cogs will be threaded right-hand onto the freewheel body? So, I grab one of them, say the 3rd one (out from inside) with one chain whip, then grab the outer (6th) one in an opposite way, so that I loosen the outer one by rotating it counterclockwise relative to the inner one? Will they just thread off?

If so, I'd just need to find a SunTour Perfect 21-tooth cog and thread it in place of the suspect 20T. Re-thread everthing and tighten with chain whip gently. Riding will do the rest of the tightening. Do I have it?
I'm sorry I'm a little late to this discussion. Not certain how I missed it last week.

Suntour Perfects have threaded cogs for the two smallest. Leaving the FW on the hub, use one chainwhip to hold the FW (use the 3rd or 4th cog to do this). Use the second chainwhip to unthread the smallest cog (lefty loosey), and then unthread the second smallest cog. The remaining four cogs are held in place by splines and have spacers seperating them.



Above is a dirty Perfect disassembled



Note the threads for the top two cogs at the top of the outer body.



Back together again. The lock ring holding the inner body to the outer has reversed threads. If you want to remove it, it is best to do so while the FW is on the hub. Use a small punch and hammer. If it does not come loose after few strikes, soak the threads with WD40 or Liquid Wrench overnight.

Hope this helps.
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Old 03-10-20, 01:28 PM
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Unclear what is meant by "sharp" side

Originally Posted by dddd View Post
This is an exact symptom of having the 20t cog reversed.

The beveling is different on each side of the cog, so flipping it over causes it to "reject" the chain, which then engages the next sprocket over.

I had this exact issue recently on a customer's vintage Marinoni. Replacing the FW instantly fixed it, but I investigated the existing fw just because it was sooo strange. Once I noticed that the cog had been reversed, I knew instantly what the fix was.

So, moral of story, don't reverse Suntour freewheel sprockets. The "sharp" side of the sprocket must face outward or downshifting won't want to happen at all.

The OP didn't mention which chain was used. I've had best results on all Suntour freewheels using Shimano 9-sp chains. Easy, fast, forgiving and quiet shifting is the result.
Don't forget to lube the shift lever pivot.
First, I know this is an old thread! But, it relates to a question I have regarding my 1979 Raleigh Super Course. I have been happily using this bike for over 4 decades and have put on 1000's and 1000's of miles on the old girl. Admittedly, almost nothing of the original bike remains except for the Reynolds frame and Weinman center pull brakes! I have replaced the freewheel many times, but accessing the sprocket range I need for the hilly terrain on which I ride is becoming more and more problematic as models like the 5 speed Suntour Perfect 14-34 are becoming harder to find at reasonable prices. Ok, that's the background. I DID find a NOS Suntour PERFECT 14-34 freewheel on eBay. It certainly looks absolutely new, but the orientation of the beveled ramps on the teeth seem to violate what I have read online, and what is mentioned in the quoted comment above. The two smallest cogs (furthest to right as you sit on the bike and pedal) have their beveled sides facing outward (to the right as you sit on the bike and pedal). The three largest cogs (furthest to the left as you sit on the bike and pedal) have their beveled sides facing inward (to the left as you sit on the bike and pedal). It's this correct? Or should all 5 cogs have their beveled sides facing outward (toward the smaller sprocket)? If those three largest cogs should have their beveled sides facing the other way, it seems strange that the factory would have installed them wrong. Or is it possible this "NOS" freewheel was taken apart and put back together wrong by someone before selling it as new? Kind regards and happy cycling to all, Mr. Luigi
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Old 03-10-20, 03:23 PM
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One more indicator of the sprocket's direction or orientation is the punched holes and ovals that lighten the larger cogs.
The sharp side of these holes and cutouts should be on the drive side of each sprocket.

Having a bigger bevel on the drive side will resist picking up the chain.
I sometimes fine-tune the beveling on both cogs and chainrings to help with shifting or to keep the chain from falling to the wrong side of the small chainring.

Shimano chains generally have the most aggressive tooth-grabbing during each shift. I use 9s chain on any Ultra-spaced freewheel.
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Old 03-10-20, 04:53 PM
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Originally Posted by dddd View Post
This is an exact symptom of having the 20t cog reversed.

The beveling is different on each side of the cog, so flipping it over causes it to "reject" the chain, which then engages the next sprocket over.

I had this exact issue recently on a customer's vintage Marinoni. Replacing the FW instantly fixed it, but I investigated the existing fw just because it was sooo strange. Once I noticed that the cog had been reversed, I knew instantly what the fix was.

So, moral of story, don't reverse Suntour freewheel sprockets. The "sharp" side of the sprocket must face outward or downshifting won't want to happen at all.

The OP didn't mention which chain was used. I've had best results on all Suntour freewheels using Shimano 9-sp chains. Easy, fast, forgiving and quiet shifting is the result.
Don't forget to lube the shift lever pivot.
I read this thread earlier in the day, then a few minutes ago I happened to pick up [the late] Frank Berto's book "Upgrading Your Bike", where I'd just started Chapter 6, "All About Freewheels", when suddenly, about 2/3 of the way down page 93, I read these words:
You have to be very careful assembling a SunTour freewheel. If you install the sprockets backwards, or if you install an outer sprocket in a middle position, the shifting is dreadful.
How about that! [hat-tip to pastorbobnlnh]
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Old 03-10-20, 08:40 PM
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Absolutely correct on the cog orientation when re-assembling. When the new winner sprocket boards came out it was common for new technicians to reverse the cogs when building the freewheels and have the problems outline above. I would still love to have a few of those bodies and the cog board to build with. Too bad we lost Suntour. Smiles, MH
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Old 03-11-20, 05:08 AM
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In my experience, the beveling normally faces inwards towards the spokes on the largest sprockets, as @Mr. Luigi describes on his Perfect, and the two smallest threaded sprockets (which can only face in one direction due to the built in spacer) have beveling which faces both ways (this also applies to ProCompe freewheels). The beveling on the threaded smallest sprockets is normally more pronounced towards the spokes.

However, as the years progressed, Suntour changed the beveling profiles on their sprockets. I wish I had time to document this with photos. I know this because I've handled a significant number of their sprockets.

I just serviced a nice 5 speed ProCompe which is 14-34 and is stored away for a future sale. Even the gold wash on the sprockets is in decent condition the most of the sprockets show no or little wear.
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Old 03-11-20, 07:28 AM
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Wow! I love you guys (and, of course, gals if any of you fall in that beloved category). Thanks so much for all the replies. It appears my freewheel is probably assembled as intended. Ok, now I have another question. I notice that on this new Perfect freewheel the WIDTH (not thickness) of the teeth on the 3 smallest cogs is noticably wider than the teeth on the two largest diameter cogs. In fact, the width of the teeth is just a bit less than the distance between rollers on the chain...I mean just barely. I can think of all kinds of engineering reasons for this having to do with the larger forces endured by the teeth on the smaller cogs compared to the larger ones. But, I have this annoying clicking noise whenever I'm in these three smaller cogs, with it being most pronounced in the two smallest cogs. It occurs once per revolution of the cogs. Sometimes there is a double click. But usually once. Greater force on the chain creates a louder click. I am pretty sure it's this freewheel interacting with the chain as the noise goes away when I change to any of my other freewheels with noticably narrower teeth. BTW, as part of the many refurbs of the bike, I have recently replaced the wheels, front crankset, rear derailleur, and bottom bracket. None of those changes helped remove the clicking noise. The noise exists with my Wipperman, and KMC 50 and 51 chains. Sometimes the noise disappears for a while, most commonly after shifting to the larger diameter sprockets and then shifting to the smaller diameter sprockets. Adjusting the position of my friction shifters has no effect. Do I just need to ride with this new freewheel a while and wear away some metal to solve the problem? As always, kind regards, Mr. Luigi
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