Calling on Cinelli Experts
 

As per Ashley Wright's suggestion I'm posting some pics of my Cinelli (possibly Equipe) to try and determine what it is.

Did lots of research and thought it to be a Cinelli Corsa but now not sure what I have. I recently had the chance to compare my frameset with an Equipe frameset and there were lots of subtle differences in the lugs and the fork crown. However the biggest difference (both frames were unbuilt getting ready for paint) was the weight, my Corsa being much lighter.

This showed up on eBay yesterday which caused me to wonder about my frame:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/170797408769...84.m1423.l2649

There seem to be more similarities to my frame than the Equipe.

I recently had the frame painted Corsa Red with Cinelli decals.

Looking forward to solving this mystery.

There was some discussion a short while ago on the forum about Centurion built by Cinelli. The pictures of the bike on ebay may be one of those.

the short version is: yours is not a Cinelli Super Corsa. it seems to be a Centurion Equipe designed/built(?) by Cinelli.

the quick giveaway that it is not a SC being the seat lug arrangement.

Cinelli Super Corsa:

http://farm7.staticflickr.com/6034/6...4c3516fd_b.jpg
Cinelli Super Corsa road frame 1985 (Columbus SLX) by pipco82, on Flickr


Centurion Equipe:

http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3388/3...33e0fce8_b.jpg
Centurionelli Ofmega build 003 by mtypinski, on Flickr

assuming the frame you were comparing the weight to was in fact a Cinelli Super Corsa, i doubt there would be much difference in weight, especially yours being the "much lighter" frame of the two.

edit: i misread the part about the weight, thought you had it the other way around

i've seen a few different versions of the Centurion Equipe, mainly different fork crowns and most with FD braze on tabs.

Have a '82 Cinelli Supercorsa so I'm aware of the seat lug difference.

Compared this frame with an Equipe firsthand, and there are small but noticable differences. Fork crowns are different (mine has integrated crown like all Cinellis from the 80s), all lugs have a slightly different shape (mine has no chrome lugs), clamp on derailleur versus braze on, and the weight of the frames. My frame is much lighter. Also angle of logo on seat stay. On all Equipes that I have seen logo is perpendicular to seat stay angle, mine has logo same angle as seat stay.

ok, so perhaps yours is not a Centurion Equipe... it definitively is not a Cinelli Super Corsa either though.

i did some searching and came up with the thread/post i was looking for: Cinelli or Centurion Equipe??

The topic has been discussed several times here in C&V. Not sure I can shed any more light on it than what's above.

I can address the items in your first-hand comparison, as I have both a 56cm Cinelli Equipe Centurion and a 56cm Cinelli Super Corsa.

First, the actual name. It was called the Cinelli Equipe Centurion, which I believe means Cinelli "Team?" Centurion.
That could be interpreted to mean that some Cinelli entity made the bike for Centurion as a "team" bike. The "team bike" marketing approach, if you recall, was used a bit back then, but the ones I'm most aware of being marketed that way were later 80's Japanese-made bike.

Now, the comparisons you list are correct. It's definitely not a Super Corsa. I do not know of other models made by Cinelli, the firm that was making the Super Corsa at the time. I'd like to see the frame weights, though, as my Equipe frame is nearly identical to my Super Corsa frame in weight, if not lighter. They ride identically. I truly cannot tell the difference in ride, in any way, shape, or form, and that's with similar wheels and groups.

There have been other examples of the Equipe that looked like yours, that is, with the turned seat stay logo and the internally lugged fork crown vs. the externally lugged fork crown. afilado here has one very much like yours in blue. ggl205 has another, with some other slight differences, and there definitely was a black model out there with some of the same subtle differences. It's entirely possible that the Equipe, which came from a shop in Italy somewhere, under the design and supervision of Cino Cinelli, was made in several slightly different versions. It was a very limited production "run" from a smaller shop, and it's easy to see how some differences would be possible. poprad, jan nikolajsen, A.Winthrop, and valentinodel also have versions of the Equipe, or had them.

A seller in Maryland called 123bikes.com had several for sale, and it appears the site is down.

My best educated guess is that your red frame is more likely to be an Equipe than anything else I know of. I have a head tube badge that you may be interested in, incorporating Centurion with the Equipe logo. In my experience, most of the Equipe owners tend to want to remove the Centurion branding from the bike.

The only thing "Centurion" about the Equipe were the DT and HT decals. These, as far as I know, were produced in lavendar/black, orange/green, and red. The red set had the word "project" in the HT decal.

That's a beautiful bike, looks like a powder-coat, and you've got it set up very nicely. Excellent work.

The eBay example is very likely one of the Equipes, and the decals, I think, are by CyclArt.

http://velospace.org/node/25487

http://velospace.org/node/41422

I don't know, maybe Cinelli labeled and sold some of the frames too?

Actually. two stage paint. Decent paint job, a little heavy on the lugs unfortunately.

Equipe does mean Team.

Hello all, New guy here. I bought Jan Nikolajsen's Equipe frameset a couple months ago. Joined this forum at his suggestion. My frame has the chrome headset lugs and the perpendicular seat stay logos. Beauty of a frame you have there.

OP's might be a repainted mid/late 80s Cinelli Unica?

I don't know, either.

It appears there were deliberate actions taken to NOT connect the large firm with the frames being made for Centurion.
The size, number, and placement of the Cinelli logo decals were negotiated for a long time, and they were inconspicuous.

Welcome to the forum.

We've seen his frame.
Now, the first question:
Are you as fast as he is?

That's one thing I've always wanted to learn: what other models did Cinelli, the large firm, build?

Hi Robbie

The reason why I want to solve this is because of this frame that showed up on eBay a few days ago:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/170797408769...#ht_4118wt_943

I never heard of or seen a Cinelli Project Centurion and there seems to be a fair amount of similarities to my frame, more than any Equipe that I have seen. So the question is, is a Project considered an Equipe?

I honestly think the word "Project" was inserted in that decal set by whomever made those decals, but I'm not sure. The lettering and style is not at all in sync with the Equipe's style, other than the Cinelli logo. From what I can learn, there were either 75 or 150 Equipes made in the silver/grey with the external lugs on the fork, chromed head tube lugs, and the pantos as seen. The Equipe's production was coordinated with Cino Cinelli by Alan Goldsmith of Centurion. I have no idea who made what decision on the details of the frame. It was designed by "Cinelli," and I gather that to mean Cino Cinelli, not the firm that was building the SC and the bars, etc.

Now, as to the framesets that are out there with the SC-style forks, the non-chromed head lugs and pantos turned in different directions, I truly don't know. I've not seen one with OEM Cinelli decals, even the small ones that were allowed on the Equipe. I've seen two with decals that said Cinelli Project Centurion, and I think that may have been a CyclArt product. Mr. Cunningham would be able to say if so or not. If none of those frames left captivity decaled, as the Equipe production run was, that would explain why I've not seen any decals on them. It's just as likely that there were other versions of the Equipe produced, none of which went to Centurion dealers for sale as Equipe's. It's also just as likely they were produced by the same folks, were not allowed to have Cinelli decals, but were sold as Cinelli framesets to interested dealers. I just don't know.

What appears to me is that the entire group, all versions, were as handmade as any frame out there, but in specific sizes, probably because the jigs were set already. The geometry of those frames appears identical to the Equipe frames, and the lugs are very close. You add in the panto'd pieces and perhaps they just kept making frames after the Equipe run was done? I do think they're every bit as "Cinelli" as the long-running SC and the one-run Equipe, which had Cino's design and supervision. I don't know enough about non-SC models to know if there was anything like that. I'm not sure we'll ever know. I sure wouldn't bank on the decals being a clue.

I have a Supercorsa as well. One of the last years for 3 hole lugs, 1982:

http://velospace.org/node/39274

As far as the frame in question, there were no chromed lugs when it was stripped before paint (fork crown was chrome plus drive-side chain stay and drop-outs). Another reason to make me originally believe it's not an Equipe. All the ones I've seen have chrome lugs.

I'm curious to see some pics of the blue frames you describe. What's C&V?

C&V is "Classic and Vintage"
We're too old to remember long words, or type them.

The bike pictured in post #1 of this thread seems very similar:

http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread...turion+Cinelli

No FD braze on, same fork, water bottle bosses on down tube only, same angle of logo on seat stays, chrome chain stay.

not fast
 

Me fast? On a bicycle? Nope. No way! I've rediscovered bicycles after being away 40 years. Used to road race vintage motorcycles. Still work in the motorcycle industry at a mom & pop BMW dealer in Fairport NY.

Cinelli Unica
 

Anyone have any info on vintage Cinelli Unica models? Pics?

This showed up on eBay today. Could this be one of those blue ones?

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Lugged-Steel...item1c249edeff

I'm not sure what makes the seller think it's a Cinelli. Those dropouts, lugs and BB shells are on tons of bikes.
I didn't see any other signs that it was a Cinelli, and having 105 would mean the BB is most likely English.
Could be a Cinelli frame, but I don't see anything Cinelli in the photos except a widely-sold BB.

Let's summarize a bit, and I'll relay what I know and believe, right or wrong. I'm not a Cinelli expert, or an Equipe expert.

1-The "OEM" Equipe was designed and produced under the supervision of Andreas Cinelli, years after Cinelli was sold to the Columbo family. It was produced in a very limited (75 or maybe 150) quantity under an agreement between Centurion and Cinelli, in a shop an hour from Milan, possibly called the Chichiro shop. The same shop also made at least some SC's and was a limited production, higher end shop. The Equipe was allowed to have two small Cinelli decals, on the DT above the shifters, and on the L chain stay. It had an externally lugged fork crown, chromed, and chromed head lugs that did not carry the tiny flying C logo. It had chromed Columbus dropouts and fork ends, a polished chrome R chain stay, and a chromed frame under the paint. The flying C was panto'd on the seat stay caps and the brake bridge, along with the fork crown. There as no serial number, and the widely-sold Cinelli BB had only the frame size stamped on it. It had what can kindly be described as "incongruous" decals by Centurion on the head tube and DT. I've seen them in lavender/black and orange/green. For a long time, I thought the orange/green were repro's, but today, I'm convinced they were OEM.

Original equipment were Fiamme Hard Silver tubulars laced to Miche hubs. Freewheel was Regina, RD, FD, and shifters were NR. Crankset was an Ofmega Mistral on an Ofmega BB. Ofmega also produced the headset and the pedals, called Sintesi's, also marketed by Avocet, I believe, with a composite pedal body. Seatpost was Gipiemme, with a Cinelli Volare suede saddle, Cinelli bars/stem, of course. Brakeset was Universal AER, some of the prettiest (and beefiest) calipers of the era.

2-There were a couple of prototypes made. The best source indicates they were matte black with red decals. I have seen one, owned by a BF member. It was definitely matte black. It definitely had red decals, saying Centurion on the down tube. They were as ugly as those on the "OEM" Equipes. I do not recall if there was any chrome whatsoever on the prototype I saw, and I don't know the component configuration. The owner of that liked it enough to be interested in the CL sale of my 56cm Equipe, as he was the "other buyer," which, at the time, I wasn't sure existed (CL negotiations being what they are, sometimes). It was only after I bought that Equipe, much later, did I encounter Tom, and trade photos.

3-The "blue group." These seem to exist without OEM decals of any kind, neither Cinelli nor Centurion. They do have some or all of the panto stamps as mentioned above. They do not have the chrome lugs of the Equipe. One I've seen has the same externally lugged fork crown as the OEM models, and others have the internally lugged chrome fork crown commonly found on the Cinelli SC's. A couple I've seen had NR FD/RD/Shifters, and one, at least, had the Ofmega crankset/bb. I've never seen one with anything close to OEM Equipe decals. It's my belief that they were likely made around the same time, around the same place, and perhaps by the same crew, as the Equipes, perhaps with the same jigs. The most likely reason they are not decaled is because they were not part of the agreement, and likely would not have had approval to have Cinelli decals on them. It definitely appears no one sent any Centurion decals to be applied to them, either. Whether they were made before or after the Equipe's production run, who knows? Do I think the hand of Andreas Cinelli was in them? Yes. Do I think they are Equipes? Not officially. Do I think they're the same bikes, in general? Yes. Do I think they came from the same people making SC's? Yes, at least some of the SC's.

4-The "grey group." These may be similar to the blue group. Some share the same "SC" fork, others do not. None have the chrome lugs. Most have the pantos, as the blue group does. They appear to be painted the same color as the Equipe. I've never seen one with the OEM decals, neither the Cinelli nor the Centurion. I have seen them with repro decals, such as the one on eBay. The lack of decals, it appears, would be for the same reason as the blue group. The finish on the grey group seems of less quality than the blue group, and I think that's likely due to the color of paint. Back then, the color of the paint made a bigger difference, sometimes, in paint quality. It's my belief that they were likely made around the same time, around the same place, and perhaps by the same crew, as the Equipes, perhaps with the same jigs. Whether they were made before or after the Equipe's production run, who knows? Do I think the hand of Andreas Cinelli was in them? Maybe, I don't know. They seem different. Do I think they are Equipes? No. Do I think they're the same bikes, in general? No, but they have as much chance as anything, and could be a higher level, or a lower level. I simply don't know. Do I think they came from the same people making SC's? No, but that's just what I think, and that has no basis in fact.

I've said this before: Every time I think I have a handle on this topic, new information pops up. I can only relate to the Equipe when it comes to this topic. Despite owning a Super Corsa, I know zilch about them. The man that negotiated the project for Centurion also sought out Cino Cinelli to help on the Ironman, but Centurion went a different direction, it appears on that. Sales of the Equipe were not good. The price was high, and the dealers had been selling the Turbo, Pro Tour, etc as "equals" to the best frames coming out of Italy, so perhaps the introduction of an Italian-made bike into the mix created some confusion among those trying to sell Centurions.

You know, yours could be a frame built for teams, as could the others. I never thought about that.

Hi Robbie.

Thanks for the history lesson. Seems that my frame is closest to the "Blue" group but may never know for sure. I bought the frameset with red paint and no original decals, except for a Columbus decal on the seat tube. As far as I could tell, the red paint was original as it was the only color overspray inside the BB lug and on the steerer tube. But on a 25+ year old frame, can't be absolutely sure it was the original paint. Previous owner was the second owner and obtained it from a former Cat racer in the Midwest. He's convinced it's a Cinelli Corsa which had a brief run in the mid 80s and only sold in Europe. The only difference from the Super Corsa being the seat lug. It's Columbus SL tubing, no swirl in the butting so not SLX, so it's definitely mid 80s. Incredibly light for a vintage frame, lightest of all my vintage Italian frames (Masi GC, Cinelli SC). Ashley sent me a message that I should look into the Cinelli Unica, haven't found much on it yet.

The research continues...

There is currently an Equipe on Vegas CL, looks like a 58cm.

There is also one for sale in Austin, TX, a 56cm (these are measured C-C)
http://www.flickr.com/photos/camchri...7416/lightbox/

Both appear OEM. Those Fiamme Hard silvers are super light wheels.