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The Tommasini Lounge

Old 04-13-18, 06:45 PM
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Originally Posted by LouB
Here she is:
So, it currently has Shimano 600. Works great--though not crazy about my brake levers moving around and they dont deliver much leverage to the Campy Delta brakes---but I'd like to build it out with an appropriate Campagnolo groupo. From what I've read these were made from '89 to '91. I'd very much like to keep brifters on the bike (Ergo shifters) --so what would be appropriate. I have some bits and pieces. 9 speed Record Ergo ****ers, a Chorus cassette hub, Record front hub, and a 9 speed new Veloce cassette. What would you Tommasini gurus recommend. I'm frickin in love with this machine!
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Old 04-13-18, 06:50 PM
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ah, the bike!
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Old 04-17-18, 08:24 PM
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@LouB @gomango @Honusms @camelopardalis

Simply beautiful Tommasini bikes all around. Camelopardalis hopefully in a few weeks we can meet for the Pasadena ride on our Tommasini bikes.

So I'm waiting on a few Campy parts to arrive in the mail and I'm very excited. Slowly but surely my Tommasini build is coming together. With patience ive been able to find SR components for reasonable prices via BF members. Ive snapped a few pics before the sun went down and I send the wheels for full service.










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Old 04-17-18, 08:44 PM
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Wonderful Prestige! You are going to have something truly special ...
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Old 04-19-18, 02:56 AM
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Originally Posted by LouB
So, it currently has Shimano 600. Works great--though not crazy about my brake levers moving around and they dont deliver much leverage to the Campy Delta brakes---but I'd like to build it out with an appropriate Campagnolo groupo. From what I've read these were made from '89 to '91. I'd very much like to keep brifters on the bike (Ergo shifters) --so what would be appropriate. I have some bits and pieces. 9 speed Record Ergo ****ers, a Chorus cassette hub, Record front hub, and a 9 speed new Veloce cassette. What would you Tommasini gurus recommend. I'm frickin in love with this machine!
Lou
If you’re talking 9 speed, that means 1998 at the earliest, then Delta brakes are ancient history having disappeared from the range by 1992. But who cares!
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Old 04-20-18, 04:02 PM
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Originally Posted by T-Mar
Personally, I'd rather have a Shimano group of the era, even mid-range 600 Ultegra. It outperforms even the best Campagnolo groups of the era, especially in the critical parameters of shifting and braking performance. But then, I'm a performance oriented rider.
Just stumbled in here looking for something, and then I saw this and couldn't unsee it...

Um, what? No really, what?
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Old 04-21-18, 09:35 AM
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Originally Posted by robertorolfo
Just stumbled in here looking for something, and then I saw this and couldn't unsee it...

Um, what? No really, what?
The statement made in the context of a early Diamante, circa 1988-1990. IMO, there's no comparison between Shimano and Campagnolo of the era. Most knowledgeable cyclists consider the late 1980s to be the dark era for Campagnolo and the period when Shimano made significant inroads into the high end market. It wasn't just a cost advantage but significant technological advances,particularly in braking and shifting performance.
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Old 04-21-18, 10:53 AM
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I agree, and would even spread the timeline out to 1984 with the introduction of DA 7400. 6207 was a killer friction group, but 6208 and then 1050 nailed it for 6 speed indexing. 7401 got 7 speed rolling, followed quickly by 6400 tricolor and 1051. 7402 hit in the late 80's followed by 6402 and 1056 8 speed, all excellent stuff that could easily be STI'd by the early 90's. Let's not even mention dual pivot brakes.

And (with the exception of 1055/56 IMO) pretty, too.

Don't get me wrong, I'm a huge fan of Campagnolo friction Record/Super Record, just not the later 80's components.
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Old 04-21-18, 02:20 PM
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Your Shimano knowledge is strong.
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Old 04-22-18, 08:05 AM
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@malcala622 - gorgeous frame and you will have a great bike when built up. If you pop those oil clips off the hubs and wipe them with WD40 or soak in Evaporust they will give the wheels a little bit sharper look. Mine is posted here a couple of years back but here’s an updated pic from Eroica courtesy of rccardr. NDS I know but I wasn’t prepared for the paparazzi.
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Old 04-22-18, 10:52 AM
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@Spaghetti Legs Thanks for the tip. I always thought those clips were on there for good and unable to take off. Ill work on those today.

The white cable housing with blue frame/tape looks good.
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Old 04-24-18, 05:08 PM
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Originally Posted by T-Mar
The statement made in the context of a early Diamante, circa 1988-1990. IMO, there's no comparison between Shimano and Campagnolo of the era. Most knowledgeable cyclists consider the late 1980s to be the dark era for Campagnolo and the period when Shimano made significant inroads into the high end market. It wasn't just a cost advantage but significant technological advances,particularly in braking and shifting performance.
Soooo, early Campagnolo indexing was a little bit messy because they tried to make everything back compatible (as opposed to Shimano that didn't give a damn), and Delta was a shot at doing something different that didn't quite work out.

Compare that to a company that simply ripped off competitors to get a start, and to this day doesn't put much (if any) thought into serviceability of their parts.

Your statement was hyperbole, and I know whose camp I'm still in...
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Old 04-26-18, 12:05 PM
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^^^. I'm in the Campagnolo camp too, depending on the era and group. I've got Campagnolo equipped bicycles spanning 5 decades and have significant experience in the retail cycling industry, competitive cycling, mechanical engineering and quality engineering. I believe I have the qualifications and self-awareness to make objective, technical based statements without resorting to hyperbole.

Every component manufacture has its low and high periods. Rather than rip-off other companies, component manufacturers simply try to follow industry trends in innovation, as much as allowed without infringing patents. If they didn't, they might as well close the factories. Did Campagnolo rip-off Shimano when they introduced indexing, brifters, freehubs, profiled cogs, dual pivot brakes, etc.? Clearly, Shimano was responsible for the significant market impact of these technologies (even if they didn't "invent" some of them) and everybody else followed. This is no different than earlier Shimano designs allegedly copying somebody else. When you start doing research, you discover that a lot of inventions, including Campagnolo's, often have predecessor's in basic concept.
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Old 04-27-18, 08:18 PM
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An introduction

Hello All, I'd like to introduce myself and my very recently acquired 'Marbo Nero' Super Prestige in a 61cm (60.7cm? per current Tommasini website chart?). This 'Lounge" has been very helpful in dating the frame. I'm guessing a US market 91-92 by its serial number - 86? US. The bike will get a proper 'Air' fork someday. ;-)
It will be built up with early 90s Dura Ace 8sp (7402?) which came off my early 90s Colnago Master very soon. Currently hunting for a bottom bracket.

As for the discussion regarding Campy or Shimano? Well, I worked in the bike biz as a high end mechanic and wheel builder in San Francisco in the 90s. Here is my take: Campy was prettier, 'cooler', very expensive and hard to get, but Shimano just worked better, I think it's a scosh lighter and easy to live with. I was present and watched Shimano grouppos take over the industry in the late 80s/early 90s. Everybody just tried to keep up. I am sure I'll be flamed here, but having worked on and serviced the all the nice stuff back in the 90s, and I could have what ever I wanted....well, my bikes are Shimano.

(I'd post pics but site wont let me until I have 10 posts....WTH?!)

Looking forward to ripping around Northern California on this rig and sure hope it fits better than my old lovely but dearly missed Colnago Master (good times) ;-)
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Old 04-28-18, 08:10 AM
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Testing tesing attachment feature

oh yeah that comedian Felipe Esparza...he liked my Columbus hat
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Old 05-03-18, 09:10 PM
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Installed the Super Record crankset today after work. Thanks a bunch to @TimmyT for the crank.

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Old 05-04-18, 03:14 PM
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Originally Posted by T-Mar
^^^. I'm in the Campagnolo camp too, depending on the era and group. I've got Campagnolo equipped bicycles spanning 5 decades and have significant experience in the retail cycling industry, competitive cycling, mechanical engineering and quality engineering. I believe I have the qualifications and self-awareness to make objective, technical based statements without resorting to hyperbole.

Every component manufacture has its low and high periods. Rather than rip-off other companies, component manufacturers simply try to follow industry trends in innovation, as much as allowed without infringing patents. If they didn't, they might as well close the factories. Did Campagnolo rip-off Shimano when they introduced indexing, brifters, freehubs, profiled cogs, dual pivot brakes, etc.? Clearly, Shimano was responsible for the significant market impact of these technologies (even if they didn't "invent" some of them) and everybody else followed. This is no different than earlier Shimano designs allegedly copying somebody else. When you start doing research, you discover that a lot of inventions, including Campagnolo's, often have predecessor's in basic concept.
I have no such qualifications and have consistently been impressed by the breadth of your cycling knowledge.

I have used Shimano groups from that era and found them to be excellent, but the extent of my Campagnolo experience is with earlier NR equipment.

I find this discussion interesting in the context of this list I stumbled on the other day. I don't know what groups 'No Winner' used, but otherwise Shimano doesn't appear until 2007. What's interesting to me is that Campagnolo was still being used by the top riders during what you refer to as the dark years. Which maybe isn't all that surprising given that the sport is fairly Euro-centric and there was probably all kinds of market pressure and sponsorship dollars at stake.
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Old 05-05-18, 04:14 PM
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Originally Posted by due ruote
...I find this discussion interesting in the context of this list I stumbled on the other day. I don't know what groups 'No Winner' used, but otherwise Shimano doesn't appear until 2007. What's interesting to me is that Campagnolo was still being used by the top riders during what you refer to as the dark years. Which maybe isn't all that surprising given that the sport is fairly Euro-centric and there was probably all kinds of market pressure and sponsorship dollars at stake.
The concise answer to Campagnolo's dominance of the TdF palmares list is that the rider and his team are the prime factor for success. Equipment is of secondary importance, as long as long as it is competent, particularly for an event that is the duration of a grand tour. Campagnolo had the foresight, ego and deep pockets to sponsor the best grand tour riders from the 1960s through the 1990s.

If technical superiority had been the major factor, Campagnolo's greatest period of dominance should have been the 1950s, when it had the parallelogram Gran Sport derailleur and Huret and Simplex were still using pull chain derailleurs. Yet, during this period TdF victories were relatively even spread among the three companies.

Campagnolo's dominance really didn't start until 1963.The event that changed things was the TdF migrating from a national team to a trade team format in 1962. This made it more acceptable for Campagnolo to sponsor top riders even if they were foreign and the team was based outside Italy. Previously, nationalism had tended to restrict his sponsorship to Italian riders on Italian teams.

As a result of the format change, Campagnolo went out and persuaded the top rider of his era, Jacques Anquetil, to outfit his St.Rahael team with Campagnolo equipment for 1963. If you look at Campagnolo's formidable run of 31 TdF victories between 1963 and 1998, you will find that 17 of those victories were accomplished by only 4 cyclists. Those cyclists: Anquetil, Merckx, Hinault and Indurain are legends of the sport who dominated their era, particularly in grand tours. I doubt there are many members who would argue that that they wouldn't have won on other than Campagnolo equipment.

The importance of rider versus equipment is underscored by the fact that three TdF winners took back to back victories on different equipment ( Anquetil in 1962 & 1963, Fignon in 1983 & 1984, Lemond in 1989 & 1990).

Campagnolo's dark period, from a technological viewpoint, was circa 1985-1990. Still, they won 4 of the 5 TdF for this era. Again, it came down to the riders and teams, more than the equipment. La Vie Claire was arguably the powerhouse team of the mid-1980s with riders the calibre of Hinault, Lemond, Hampsten and Bauer. They took 1st, 2nd & 10th in the 1985 edition of the Tdf, followed by 1st, 2nd & 5th in 1986. In 1987, nobody was going to stop Roche, who had a season for the ages, winning cycling's Triple Crown of the Giro d'Italia, TDF and World Championship.

While Shimano's technical ascendency started in 1985, prior to that they had only intermittent exposure on the European pro circuit, where they were viewed with skepticism. The timing was right for another push in the late 1980s. Pro cycling was becoming stifled by it's Euro-centric image, as traditional manufacturers and teams started to disappear. The UCI looked to spread it wings, first to America and then beyond. With it came foreign teams having no allegiance to Campagnolo.

Shimano had been received more warmly in USA cycling and American peletons showed a far more diverse range of equipment than their European counterparts. So, perhaps it was fitting that despite some earlier success with Flandria and Cilo, Shimano's major re-emergence in Europe would come via USA based teams, first 7-Eleven, then Motorola and finally Tdf victories (later to be rescinded) with USPS.

The global growth of the sport coincided with Shimano's growth as the leading producer of bicycle components. Teams were becoming increasingly more expense to operate and Shimano was better positioned to fund them than Campagnolo. The coin had flipped and now Shimano could afford the top riders and teams, while Camapgnolo had to budget more carefully. Consequently, the 21st century TdF results have been dominated by Shimano.
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Old 05-13-18, 12:23 AM
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Record brake calipers and Regina Extra added to the Tommasini



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Old 05-13-18, 03:09 PM
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Originally Posted by malcala622
Record brake calipers and Regina Extra added to the Tommasini
Coming together nicely!

Have you found a good fitting tire for those rims yet? They are notoriously oversized for 700c and many people (like me) complain they can't get a tire over them. I don't want to open a can-o-worms discussion on them, as there are many of this very subject on other threads -- just looking for a tire I might try before breaking my wheels down to extract the hubs.
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Old 05-13-18, 05:16 PM
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Originally Posted by Lascauxcaveman
Coming together nicely!

Have you found a good fitting tire for those rims yet? They are notoriously oversized for 700c and many people (like me) complain they can't get a tire over them. I don't want to open a can-o-worms discussion on them, as there are many of this very subject on other threads -- just looking for a tire I might try before breaking my wheels down to extract the hubs.
I haven't come to that part of the build yet. But I did ask for VeloFlex Masters for my bday so those may take the challenge. I personally haven't had issues mounting on Ambrosio rims but ill give an update when I get to it.
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Old 05-13-18, 07:06 PM
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Originally Posted by malcala622
Record brake calipers
Contact the seller and ask if he has more brake pads/holders. What you currently have are four non-drive pads/holders. On both brakes, the open ends should face to the rear and with what you currently have, you'll be popping the non-drive pads right out of the holders on the first major brake application.

DD
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Old 05-13-18, 09:24 PM
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@Drillium Dude Yes I noticed the holders were all identical when I purchased the set. We're meeting up again this week so I can get the correct holders.
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Old 05-27-18, 07:33 PM
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Swapped the Athena headset for the Super Record today and its an improvement aesthetic wise and I'm much happier the group is all matched.

Next week I pick up some SR pedals

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Old 05-31-18, 10:26 PM
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She is finally complete. Thank you to all the BF members that helped along the way. The advice, suggestions, frame info and parts sales is greatly appreciated.

I took the Veloflex Masters from my other bike for a test run and I may leave them as is.

Took her out around the block a few times and all I can say is....She really glides!!! Just smooth sailing the whole time amd shifting is beautiful.

I still need to do a few adjustments with the saddle and bars to get the postioning just right.

So here she is. Lighting was a bit weird today towards the end of the day so when i take it for its maiden voyage ill snap pictures.





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