Chansd5

Hello guys,

A while back I posted about the 1977 Colner that I grabbed off of Ebay



I took it for a total overhaul at 718 Cyclery in Brooklyn, NY today. I found out that the old Sachs Maillard 7 Speed freewheel is at its last gasps of life. The mechanic said it was toast and when I rode it, it would make popping noises and such. I substitute a really mediocre quality Taiwanese cassette so that I could ride the darn bike but would like to start looking for some thing quality from that italian bike era to do it justice. The mechanic cannot get the chain line to work on the big chainring/lowest gear combination. I think the bike was built for racing cassettes, so one teeth difference between gears.

Right now, I am confused at which cassette to get. If I can go down to a 5 speed or 6 (the mechanic told me that its dependent on a certain length of something, dropouts perhaps?) What about the types of threading? English? French? Gosh, this stuff is so confusing.

Perhaps there is another brand of cassette of that vintage that would work? I am not too anal about being period correct on a consumable item such as a cassette, but any advice would be great!

This forum is a great resource, keep posting guys!

-JC

dddd

Ok, for starters you are looking for a freewheel, not a cassette.

The chainline has nothing to do with the ability to use any certain size of sprocket, which is determined firstly by the derailer then optimized with proper chain length and axle position within the dropout slots in the frame.

The Nuovo Record derailer WILL handle a 28t with the proper chain length and axle position, as long as the front chainrings are only 10t difference in size.

You can use one of the excellent and inexpensive Shimano 13-28t 7-speed freewheels with a modern 8-speed chain and your derailer.
A 13-28t Sunrace freewheel is another good choice since the sprockets are all the same plating and no black largest sprocket.

A vintage Shimano 600, Sante or Dura-Ace freewheel will provide the very best friction-shifting with a modern chain. These are way out of production so must be sourced from the usual vintage sources such as Ebay and swap-meets. This is what I would use, once I decided on the gear range I needed.

Any Shimano freewheel, most Suntour freewheels, and anything made in the last 20 years will have English threading, which will work fine on your Italian hub.

Chansd5

You are like... Awesome. That's all I can say.

Question: Would something like this work?

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Shimano-Dura...#ht_500wt_1415

Road Fan

Ok, I've been through this with my 1980 Masi - US-made, but purely Italian style. Mine came with 5-speed, set at 120 mm OLD x. I had the frame spread to 126 mm , and immediately installed a 6-speed 13-26, which adjusted with no problem. If you are going to change from 5 to 6 or 7, you need to add spacers to the rear axle to add width to the area where the freewheel sits, and to adjust the dish of the wheel to re-center the rim and tire in the frame. Later I changed to a closer ratio Sachs-Maillard ARIS and an assortment of Shimano 600s and DuraAces, all 6's and 7's. The Campy NR rear derailleur adjusted perfectly for all of them. I was not very successful setting it up with a 28 tooth rear end, but I don't really need it on that bike.

If your mechanic can't get 6 or 7 to work on that bike and the frame and hub are properly widened, your mechanic is not seeing something rather normal that needs to be done. In other words, find a different mechanic. Better yet, learn to do it yourself. It sounds like your mechanic does not know what to do.

We can help you diagnose it if you can post detailed pictures of the rear hub and derailleur.

clasher

If money's no object, there are also the IRD freewheels in a number of sizes. I'm thinking of getting a 5 spd 13-32 for my slow self.

Chansd5

Ok guys, here is some pictures of my current cheap freewheel. I am aiming at a Dura Ace 13-21 7 spd right now.

dddd

Looks like you got a 13-28t 7-speed on there ok.

If the chain length and axle position are set ok then this setup will work no problemo. Your frame/hub/axle seem to be set with the proper width for the 7-speed, and the chainring sizes are fine also.

Many of today's tech's will not be familiar with getting the chain length and axle position proper if it doesn't magically work on the first try, but it's not hard, heck I can even do it, just takes a little semi-educated poking around and fiddling. Not a big deal unless the chain was firstly cut too short, so first I would check for the proper chain "slack" with the chain on the biggest sprockets and probably move the axle foreward.
It looks like you can "recover" about 2 links (2 half-links, some would say) of chain length just by moving the axle foreward, but that doesn't necessarily mean that the chain wasn't cut too short. Maybe start by just moving the axle foreward yourself, see if that works!

What is that, a DNP Epoch freewheel? Might work out ok, I've used 'em for moderate level riding and they are probably better QC'd than in the past.

Chansd5

The mechanic put it on for me, but he said he had problems getting the chain (length? tension?) right if I go into big chainring/lowest 2 gear combination. He said I shouldn't be riding cross-cross combinations anyway.

I am not sure of the branding of this freewheel other than that it's made in Taiwan. I looked at the machining carefully and the teeth aren't machined nearly as well as the old Sachs-Maillard. I am looking to replace it. Looking at a NOS Dura-Ace 7 spd 13-19 or 13-23 as per your recommendation. (Trying to stay with a smaller sized big sprocket for more flexibility)

I shouldn't depend so much on my mechanic, but I am really new to maintaining geared road bikes. I like the simplicity of single speed, this rear derailleur, freewheel, hub threading is a whole other world. But hopefully I can get my hands greasy learning about it on this forum.

dddd

The way that modern sprocket teeth are produced from stamping/shearing operations, the newer teeth really shouldn't be compared to the older ones where every tooth is supposed to be identical.
Nothing wrong with the old ones, but they are a different animal.

With the much more-flexible modern chains, cross-chaining isn't nearly the "sin" that it once was.
The amount of cross-chaining with just 6 or 7 sprockets isn't even in the same league as with, say, 8 or 9-speed, but there it does depend more on proper chainline, as it is right at the limit.

zukahn1 

As said earlier a 6 or 7 speed Dura Ace would likely be best. But on realistic budget and time frame there is nothing bad about about the 13-28 7spd Sunrace and basic KMC chain for about $30 this should work great.
I have used this combo on several bikes I have built up with very good results.

pastorbobnlnh 

It could be that the original Sachs freewheel just needs servicing. Your LBS would never offer to do this. I've recently completed service on 6 Sachs FWs for one customer in CA. Most had some issue before I started and all suffered from needing new grease. All 6 worked as if they were NIB after I was finished. You can check my website from the link below.

Whit51 

I wonder if what the OPs mechanic is trying to say is that, with the 13-28 freewheel, the chain is now too short? If so, probably need a new chain anyway.

conspiratemus1

I'd echo PastorBob here. How do you know it's toast? Sachs-Maillards are pretty good freewheels -- they are still the backbone of my commuting bikes. The ratcheting mechanism in the innards rarely wears out because the parts move against each other only when you're coasting. Under pedalling loads, the pawls engage the ratchet and the thing turns as a single part. Freewheels, unless meticulously overhauled, often do make grinding popping noises when you coast -- I always took that as a spur to "Pedal! Stop coasting!" But my Sachs coast more stealthily than a cassette free-hub. As long as the ratchet engages when you want to pedal, and slips to allow you coast, it's probably not toast. I've never owned a freewheel that I couldn't get working better just by pouring thin oil into the top until what comes out the bottom isn't rusty....except a few that have a seal where the outer bits move against each other. Then you have to do some thinking.

Now, it's possible that one or more cogs are worn so badly that the freewheel is, indeed, toast. This may not be obvious until you mount a new chain and it skips over the teeth when you pedal instead of engaging to drive the wheel.

Chansd5

I ordered an IRD freewheel just so I can ride my bike in the next few weeks until I can figure out what to do about the Sachs-Maillard.

I sat on my workbench the other night looking at the 'toast' Sachs. The teeth still seem to be perfectly intact and beautifully machined. Once I gave it a good wipe, the thing looks almost NOS. I am thinking about restoring it.

dddd

The Sachs freewheels in particular suffer from thickened lube inside.

The ball bearings have plastic retainers that rotate at half-speed, you can see them, and they prevent lubrication from entering.

If you unscrew and remove the cogs though, there is a hole in the body where oil can be applied. I use 8 or 10 drops with the freewheel sitting flat on a surface for a few minutes, then I apply ten more drops and flip the freewheel over so the oil reaches the bearings at the other end of the freewheel. I recommend light motor oil.
This almost always restores an easy-turning action to the ratchet and bearings without taking the freewheel body apart, and takes about ten minutes using a pair of chain whip tools. It can be very important to have the freewheel mounted on a wheel when using the chain whips to prevent leaning and resultant broken tools if the cogs are on tight. Lubing the freewheel doesn't require that it be removed from the wheel, just that the cogs be removed.

If you want to tinker, the Sachs freewheels are a little easier to rebuild than others because the bearings are contained in the plastic retainer/seal rings, but always use loctite on the threaded cone/lockring when putting a freewheel back together.

pastorbobnlnh 

Not all Sachs have the bearing cages. The first Sachs I worked on did come equipped with the cages.





But the 6 Sachs FWs I've recently been working on, all had loose balls.

I do agree, the original grease in the Sachs is yucky! It's the brown sort and it tends to clog the pawls and spread to every nook and cranny as it ages and the FW is used.

Now with that said, a freshly serviced Sachs is a joy to experience. They feel NIB. The customer who has sent me these 6 Sachs to work on, has his LBS install them. Each time the mechanic handles one he is very impressed by how they work.

pastorbobnlnh 

Just as a followup, I serviced two Sachs this evening which use the loose ball bearings. Here are a two pictures as a comparison to the above Sachs.

Chansd5

How do I begin if I am interested in your services?

pastorbobnlnh 

Check out my website, FreeWheelSpa.Com. If you want, send me an email using my contact form. You can send the Sachs to me, I'll see what I can do to make it purr again, and then you can pay. I try to make life as easy as possible.