Go Back  Bike Forums > Bike Forums > Classic & Vintage
Reload this Page >

Are you really who you say you are....

Notices
Classic & Vintage This forum is to discuss the many aspects of classic and vintage bicycles, including musclebikes, lightweights, middleweights, hi-wheelers, bone-shakers, safety bikes and much more.

Are you really who you say you are....

Old 05-16-12, 09:49 AM
  #1  
Henry III
is just a real cool dude
Thread Starter
 
Henry III's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: The Thumb, MI
Posts: 3,167
Mentioned: 10 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 27 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 22 Times in 9 Posts
Are you really who you say you are....

This got me thinking from another thread. Of the more known of larger Italian builders who actually build their own bikes. I'm not talking currently but of the time period of related to this forum. Like when you toss your leg over that Colnago, Ciocc, Guerciotti, etc...is it really or just the decals? I know quite a few companies had frames built by subcontractors like Billato so I was just curious. I guess it kind of ruins it for me when I find out frame wasn't actually built by so and so. My Ciocc is a mid 80's TSD model so it was never in the same building as Giovanni as the name was sold years before it was ever built. I just look at the bike a little differently and I guess that goes for most TSD bikes.

Plus who and when did they sell their name? Such as Masi, Ciocc, Bottecchia...
Henry III is offline  
Old 05-16-12, 09:54 AM
  #2  
noglider 
aka Tom Reingold
 
noglider's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: High Falls, NY, USA
Posts: 39,856

Bikes: 1962 Rudge Sports, 1971 Raleigh Super Course, 1971 Raleigh Pro Track, 1974 Raleigh International, 1975 Viscount Fixie, 1982 McLean, 1996 Lemond (Ti), 2002 Burley Zydeco tandem

Mentioned: 484 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6844 Post(s)
Liked 1,455 Times in 925 Posts
I'm the only Tom Reingold on the internet, so when you google me, all those embarrassing quotes really did come from me.
__________________
Tom Reingold, tom@noglider.com
New York City and High Falls, NY
Blogs: The Experienced Cyclist; noglider's ride blog

“When man invented the bicycle he reached the peak of his attainments.” — Elizabeth West, US author

Please email me rather than PM'ing me. Thanks.
noglider is offline  
Likes For noglider:
Old 05-16-12, 10:11 AM
  #3  
Drillium Dude 
Gone riding
 
Drillium Dude's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 10,704
Mentioned: 208 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1727 Post(s)
Liked 1,462 Times in 638 Posts
I'm pretty sure my '74 and '83 Colnagos were built in Cambiago. The other Italians I have are all somewhat obscure, so I couldn't say for sure - they could've sub-contracted. All except Casati - I know they do all their frames under one roof.

I'm positive my Davidson was built in Seattle, in the back workshop at Elliott Bay Bicycles

DD
__________________
My Flickr pics: https://www.flickr.com/photos/30331021@N08/


Last edited by Drillium Dude; 05-16-12 at 10:16 AM.
Drillium Dude is offline  
Old 05-16-12, 10:33 AM
  #4  
3alarmer
Friendship is Magic
 
3alarmer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: The Big Tomato
Posts: 19,439

Bikes: old ones

Mentioned: 274 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 20806 Post(s)
Liked 3,789 Times in 2,786 Posts
Not really, but I'm in witness protection, so I can't say any more.

Let's just say I sang like a canary about the Specialized Crime Syndicate.
3alarmer is offline  
Old 05-16-12, 10:34 AM
  #5  
KonAaron Snake 
Fat Guy on a Little Bike
 
KonAaron Snake's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Philadelphia, PA
Posts: 17,125

Bikes: Two wheeled ones

Mentioned: 41 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1218 Post(s)
Liked 206 Times in 118 Posts
Pretty much all of my bikes were built by the names that adorn them. I know that the Billatos, and other subcontractors, were fantastic builders (often better than those they worked for), but, for me, there's something special about the bike being built by the factory/workshop...or, preferably, builder, whose name is on my bike. I have little interest in Ciocc, Bottechia, Colnago, etc. for that very reason. It might be irrational, but I like knowing a De Rosa built my De Rosas.

As a side note - why is better to have a Serotta built by Bedford or Kirk at the Serotta factory than getting a Ciocc built by a Billatto? Since Colnago hands likely never touched DD's Colnago, is that really preferable to one that's subcontracted? Some bikes are more valuable subcontracted - like a Billato Lemond. All of this is to say that it's all perception and marketing. I know that, yet am still susceptible to it.
KonAaron Snake is offline  
Old 05-16-12, 10:43 AM
  #6  
RobE30
Wherever I may roam....
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Topton Pa
Posts: 1,893

Bikes: A few bikes

Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 8 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Most of my bikes were built by drunken Brits
RobE30 is offline  
Old 05-16-12, 10:44 AM
  #7  
ftwelder
Senior Member
 
ftwelder's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: vermont
Posts: 3,091

Bikes: Many

Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 4 Times in 4 Posts
The only collectables that I have that I know are contract built bikes would be the Carlton built Raleighs and Rudge. But I guess if Raleigh owned the factory that would not count. I don't think my Raleighs are of the correct vintage.

I can tell you I used to build a lot of MTB's for brands that didn't have the ability to make anything. I still do for a few.
ftwelder is offline  
Likes For ftwelder:
Old 05-16-12, 12:26 PM
  #8  
pastorbobnlnh 
Freewheel Medic
 
pastorbobnlnh's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Ascending or Descending the NH Mountains NW of Concord!
Posts: 11,582

Bikes: Snazzy* Schwinns, Classy Cannondales, & a Lonely '83 Santana Tandem (* Ed.)

Mentioned: 97 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 678 Post(s)
Liked 284 Times in 189 Posts
Originally Posted by ftwelder View Post
...I can tell you I used to build a lot of MTB's for brands that didn't have the ability to make anything. I still do for a few.
Frank, that is such an incredible statement. Sad but true across many professions. In my business this would be the case for the pastors who never write their own sermons or prayers.
__________________
Bob
Dreaming about riding in NH's summertime!

Visit my websites:
FreeWheelSpa.com orpastorbobnlnh.com
pastorbobnlnh is offline  
Old 05-16-12, 12:42 PM
  #9  
non-fixie 
Shifting is fun!
 
non-fixie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: South Holland, NL
Posts: 9,448

Bikes: Yes, please.

Mentioned: 237 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1616 Post(s)
Liked 1,357 Times in 711 Posts
No, of course not. Where's the fun in that?

But on a more serious note: isn't the search for who actually built the bike part of the whole C&V experience? For me it is.
non-fixie is offline  
Old 05-16-12, 01:17 PM
  #10  
Homebrew01
Super Moderator
 
Homebrew01's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Ffld Cnty Connecticut
Posts: 21,633

Bikes: Old Steelies I made, Old Cannondales

Mentioned: 10 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1053 Post(s)
Liked 464 Times in 335 Posts
I built my own for racing back then, so I know it wasn't outsourced !
__________________
Bikes: Old steel race bikes, old Cannondale race bikes, less old Cannondale race bike, crappy old mtn bike.

FYI: https://www.bikeforums.net/forum-sugg...ad-please.html
Homebrew01 is offline  
Old 05-16-12, 01:42 PM
  #11  
RobbieTunes
Banned
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 27,297
Mentioned: 34 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 378 Post(s)
Liked 1,370 Times in 884 Posts
Centurion didn't make any of my bikes, and it's likely my Cinellis were Chirico-made, and I'm 110% OK with that.
RobbieTunes is offline  
Old 05-16-12, 02:02 PM
  #12  
dddd
Ride, Wrench, Swap, Race
 
dddd's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Northern California
Posts: 7,954

Bikes: Cheltenham-Pederson racer, Boulder F/S Paris-Roubaix, Varsity racer, '52 Christophe, '62 Continental, '92 Merckx, '75 Limongi, '76 Presto, '72 Gitane SC, '71 Schwinn SS, etc.

Mentioned: 112 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1061 Post(s)
Liked 487 Times in 346 Posts
One of my best-riding bikes of all time, a 1997 Masi Nuova Strada, has an "M" cutout in the bb shell, but it's not the Masi "M".
It's Mondonico-built, and I am quite OK with that. It was alco painted in California, by I think Dave Allen(?) at Cyclesmiths(?) perhaps.
Just a great ride, and with the enviable reputation for quality control that such a large contract builder can boast.
Both my Marin Vicenza and (former) Palo-Alto Touring bike were especially good bikes as well, and both were built by Billato.

I have a Fausto Coppi 1990's Repato Corse that is very nice also, and I would like to know who built it.

Even my 1952 Eugene Christophe pro road bike, though sold at or through E. Christophe's French storefront, is identical to the Automoto Champion De Monde of the same year, but perhaps even the very large Automoto company contracted out their top model.

Last edited by dddd; 05-16-12 at 02:08 PM.
dddd is offline  
Old 05-16-12, 02:05 PM
  #13  
OldsCOOL
Senior Member
 
OldsCOOL's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: northern michigan
Posts: 13,209

Bikes: '77 Colnago Super, '76 Fuji The Finest, '88 Cannondale Criterium, '86 Trek 760, '87 Miyata 712

Mentioned: 19 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 639 Post(s)
Liked 474 Times in 259 Posts
Originally Posted by pastorbobnlnh View Post
Frank, that is such an incredible statement. Sad but true across many professions. In my business this would be the case for the pastors who never write their own sermons or prayers.
I still do.

On the other hand, I have some spaghetti in the pantry that isnt made in Italy.
OldsCOOL is offline  
Old 05-16-12, 02:08 PM
  #14  
vinfix
Steel80's
 
vinfix's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: NJ
Posts: 629

Bikes: Breezer Venturi, Breezer Lightning Pro, Schwinn Peloton

Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 43 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 7 Times in 5 Posts
If you're into the collectability and provenance of a bike, where a frame was built matters. Or maybe if you get a kick out of researching it & knowing, like sports statistics. It must matter to a lot of collectors, since I've read here about scammers forging Colnagos, etc.

The implication of a sub-contracted or off-shore built bike, of course, is that it's done to meet cost or production volume targets, and therefore the quality is not as good. That, and it doesn't have the "romance" of coming from some Italian craftsman's shop. This is all relative, back in the 80's Japanese bikes were considered copies and not all that great, now the vintage ones have respect.

Old Italian bike= collectible,even though they made crappy ones, too.
New one, actually made in China with spotty quality, and a re-licensed or a made-up, Italian style name= (perceived as) junk.
vinfix is offline  
Old 05-16-12, 02:16 PM
  #15  
dddd
Ride, Wrench, Swap, Race
 
dddd's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Northern California
Posts: 7,954

Bikes: Cheltenham-Pederson racer, Boulder F/S Paris-Roubaix, Varsity racer, '52 Christophe, '62 Continental, '92 Merckx, '75 Limongi, '76 Presto, '72 Gitane SC, '71 Schwinn SS, etc.

Mentioned: 112 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1061 Post(s)
Liked 487 Times in 346 Posts
"Old Italian bike= collectible,even though they made crappy ones, too.
New one, actually made in China with spotty quality, and a re-licensed or a made-up, Italian style name= (perceived as) junk."

In today's market, with faster start-ups, it's going to be harder to quantify what you're buying.
Companies that have maintained a continuous output of bikes are correctly percieved as more likely to have control of maintaining their reputation for quality, even if they do outsource production.
A re-start of an old name is better than nothing only to the extent that the obsolete brand name has value such that the new owner loses value of the brand they bought if they build bad product.
dddd is offline  
Old 05-16-12, 02:26 PM
  #16  
ThermionicScott 
7-speed cultist
 
ThermionicScott's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: CID
Posts: 20,100

Bikes: 1991 Bianchi Eros, 1964 Armstrong, 1988 Diamondback Ascent, 1988 Bianchi Premio, 1987 Bianchi Sport SX, 1980s Raleigh mixte (hers)

Mentioned: 88 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2794 Post(s)
Liked 740 Times in 519 Posts
Both of my Bianchis were made in Asia. I'm okay with it.
__________________
Originally Posted by chandltp View Post
There's no such thing as too far.. just lack of time
Originally Posted by noglider
People in this forum are not typical.
RUSA #7498
ThermionicScott is offline  
Old 05-16-12, 02:29 PM
  #17  
David Newton
Wood
 
David Newton's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Beaumont, Tx
Posts: 2,301

Bikes: Raleigh Sports: hers. Vianelli Professional & Bridgestone 300: mine

Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 3 Times in 3 Posts
I know who built 3 of my guitars.
David Newton is offline  
Old 05-16-12, 02:57 PM
  #18  
well biked 
biked well
 
well biked's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 7,353
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 102 Post(s)
Liked 43 Times in 32 Posts
My chrome (April) '71 Schwinn Paramount was probably built in "the cage" at the Chicago Schwinn plant, but I don't think that is definite. I've read that Don Mainland in Wisconsin built all of the chrome Paramounts for model year 1972 (and beyond?), but wasn't doing nearly as many before that, so that would seem to mean there's a good chance my '71 bike was built in Chicago. I really don't know, and I don't think there's any way to know for sure. From a workmanship standpoint it wouldn't be a bad thing if he built it, since I think the reason he built the full chrome bikes was that his finish work on the frames was better for the most part.
well biked is offline  
Old 05-16-12, 03:21 PM
  #19  
Bianchigirll 
Bianchi Goddess
 
Bianchigirll's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Shady Pines Retirement Fort Wayne, In
Posts: 27,350

Bikes: Too many to list here check my signature.

Mentioned: 145 Post(s)
Tagged: 2 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1947 Post(s)
Liked 733 Times in 463 Posts
Well as I have said in here before, I have built atleast one new from 10spd Drive Guerciotti frame that although painted//badged Guerciotti the BB shell and other embellishments were atcually Battaglin.

I have it on good authority that my Bertoni "funny bike" as well as other Bertonis were built by Bianchi.

I am however confident that all my Italian Bianchis were built by a employee of Bianchi Spa Italy but I don't think Eduardo has picked up a torch in several years.

I have no idea who built the Rigi frames for WSI back in the day. Same with my Cornelo (it is actually Dutch but worth mentioning) although I was told it was thought to be built in Italy
__________________
Bianchis '90 Proto, '90 Campione del Fausto Giamondi Specialisma Italiano Mundo, '91 Boarala 'cross, '93 Project 3, '86 Volpe, '97 Ti Megatube, '93 Reparto Corse SBX

Others but still loved; '80 Batavus Professional, '87 Cornelo, '?? Jane Doe (still on the drawing board), '90ish Haro Escape SLX Bertoni "Speckled Trout"

Last edited by Bianchigirll; 05-16-12 at 04:43 PM.
Bianchigirll is offline  
Old 05-16-12, 03:45 PM
  #20  
Andycapp
Senior Member
 
Andycapp's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Puyallup, WA
Posts: 446

Bikes: Tommasini Super Prestige, Kamra Triathlee, Nishiki Tri-A equipe', Sakai 2000

Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 2 Times in 2 Posts
According to the catalog "every Tommasini frame and fork is built personally by Iro Tommasini". Not sure if that means he actually brazes every frame or not but I take it to mean they're all built in house and I love that fact.

On the other hand, I was just given a '59 Huffy Sportsman 3-speed that was built by Raleigh. Everything about it is British and that's a huge relief!
Andycapp is offline  
Old 05-16-12, 04:01 PM
  #21  
Henry III
is just a real cool dude
Thread Starter
 
Henry III's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: The Thumb, MI
Posts: 3,167
Mentioned: 10 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 27 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 22 Times in 9 Posts
I guess what I'm saying is if a bike is made by so and so then it raises my eyebrow if it was actually made in their shop.

What's the whole story on TSD frames? Did they do like braze on work such putting on their own brake bridges or did they just get bare frames or so the painting there. Or did they build the entire frame up there. Like Trina said one Guerciotti she built up had Battaglin embellishments. Now I'm not saying I expect a Colnago to be brazed up Ernesto otherwise I'm not happy.

What famous companies sold their names and no longer associated with the brand?
Henry III is offline  
Old 05-16-12, 04:15 PM
  #22  
KonAaron Snake 
Fat Guy on a Little Bike
 
KonAaron Snake's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Philadelphia, PA
Posts: 17,125

Bikes: Two wheeled ones

Mentioned: 41 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1218 Post(s)
Liked 206 Times in 118 Posts
Originally Posted by Henry III View Post
I guess what I'm saying is if a bike is made by so and so then it raises my eyebrow if it was actually made in their shop.

What's the whole story on TSD frames? Did they do like braze on work such putting on their own brake bridges or did they just get bare frames or so the painting there. Or did they build the entire frame up there. Like Trina said one Guerciotti she built up had Battaglin embellishments. Now I'm not saying I expect a Colnago to be brazed up Ernesto otherwise I'm not happy.

What famous companies sold their names and no longer associated with the brand?
Eddy Merckx

Schwinn, Dawes, Bottechia, Motobecane. GT, Diamond Back, Mongoose, Rene Herse, Cinelli, Merlin, Litespeed.
KonAaron Snake is offline  
Old 05-16-12, 04:26 PM
  #23  
Simplyhere
Member
 
Simplyhere's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Upstate South Carolina
Posts: 22
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Originally Posted by David Newton View Post
I know who built 3 of my guitars.
Me too. :-) And I believe my Mercian was built by Mercian.

Last edited by Simplyhere; 05-16-12 at 04:32 PM.
Simplyhere is offline  
Old 05-16-12, 04:36 PM
  #24  
zukahn1 
Senior Member
 
zukahn1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Fairplay Co
Posts: 8,111

Bikes: Current 79 Nishiki Custum Sport, Jeunet 620, notable previous bikes P.K. Ripper loop tail, Kawahara Laser Lite, Paramount Track full chrome, Raliegh Internatioanl, Motobecan Super Mirage. 59 Crown royak 3 speed

Mentioned: 21 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 466 Post(s)
Liked 261 Times in 163 Posts
Originally Posted by Chuckk View Post
Are Schwinns built in Chicago more Schwinnish than those from Greenville and more Schwinnish than Panasonic or Giant Schwinns? Good bikes, all.

Are Raleighs (USA) built by Merida really Raleighs? I'd swear that in the mid 80's they had more Raleigh "flavour" than any coming out of the homeland - and acceptable quality as a side feature.
But what about Kent built Raleighs? B-/
Actually a lot of the RBCA bikes where actually made by Huffy . But as said they where very nice well built affordable bike as good or better than a lot of the stuff built in England.
zukahn1 is offline  
Old 05-16-12, 04:49 PM
  #25  
Bianchigirll 
Bianchi Goddess
 
Bianchigirll's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Shady Pines Retirement Fort Wayne, In
Posts: 27,350

Bikes: Too many to list here check my signature.

Mentioned: 145 Post(s)
Tagged: 2 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1947 Post(s)
Liked 733 Times in 463 Posts
Originally Posted by Henry III View Post
I guess what I'm saying is if a bike is made by so and so then it raises my eyebrow if it was actually made in their shop.

What's the whole story on TSD frames? Did they do like braze on work such putting on their own brake bridges or did they just get bare frames or so the painting there. Or did they build the entire frame up there. Like Trina said one Guerciotti she built up had Battaglin embellishments. Now I'm not saying I expect a Colnago to be brazed up Ernesto otherwise I'm not happy.

What famous companies sold their names and no longer associated with the brand?

To the best of my knowledge the 10spd drive frame were built for them in Italy and I would assume they asked for / required th brake bridge stamping or maybe they did that before painting the frame in Fla.

How many of these guys are even around? Bottechia bikes did not come out until after his mysterious demise. Is Battaglin or Guerciotti still around? Who holds the name? I know there other frames brought in by 10spd I just can't think of any beside Coicc and Lemond and of course the afore mentioned Bottechias
__________________
Bianchis '90 Proto, '90 Campione del Fausto Giamondi Specialisma Italiano Mundo, '91 Boarala 'cross, '93 Project 3, '86 Volpe, '97 Ti Megatube, '93 Reparto Corse SBX

Others but still loved; '80 Batavus Professional, '87 Cornelo, '?? Jane Doe (still on the drawing board), '90ish Haro Escape SLX Bertoni "Speckled Trout"
Bianchigirll is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service - Do Not Sell My Personal Information -

Copyright © 2021 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.