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Help ID a Chrome Raleigh (Professional?) with a strange serial?

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Help ID a Chrome Raleigh (Professional?) with a strange serial?

Old 05-20-12, 06:18 PM
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Help ID a Chrome Raleigh (Professional?) with a strange serial?

I just acquired what seems to be nice Raleigh from my Uncle who is moving out of the country. He said that he "sold his car to buy it". I'd take that with a grain of salt, but it seems nice nonetheless. I believe plenty of the party may have been swapped at some point, but I'd like to know what model/tubeset it has. The serial doesn't seem to conform to any Raleigh serial database I've come across.

Serial is stamped on the bottom bracket L-6844
It has a "56" stamped on the seat tube below the seatlug. It's a 56cm obviously.
No decals, only a Raleigh badge on the headtube. I'm guessing the were removed/came off.
Fully chrome
Dura-Ace single pivot brakes
Campagnolo Dropouts
Campagnolo (Record I think) high flange hubs laced 3x to Wolber alloy rims.
5 speed freewheel, too dirty to tell brand.
Raleigh branded stem. SR bars.
crank is "Silstar". Pedals, headset, seatpost, and seat seem to be replacements. Saddle says "Windsor" and seems to be leather. Not brooks style, more turbo style.
Spearpoint lugs. Headtube lug has a couple holes.
Seatstays have a bullet shaped top.
Geometry is very tight, definitely sporty road.

My first thought was a Professional, but the seatstays don't look like any professional seat stays I've seen.

It "hung in the barn for years and years" so it could use a good cleaning, but seems to be in decent shape short of a little chrome pitting here and there and some missing chrome on the stays.

I can get some pics if it would help as well. Does anyone have any idea what I'm working with here?

Thanks!
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Old 05-20-12, 06:24 PM
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Pics will help a lot.
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Old 05-20-12, 06:29 PM
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Originally Posted by lostarchitect
Pics will help a lot.
+1

The lugs, stays, and other parts on the frame will help identify what you have. There are lots of Raleigh experts around who can identify the year and model very quickly.
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Old 05-20-12, 07:11 PM
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Originally Posted by jerrymcdougal
Spearpoint lugs. Headtube lug has a couple holes.
Seatstays have a bullet shaped top.
Vincitore had spearpoint lugs by Mercian

look at the lugs...without pictures your description needs some refinement
https://www.framebuilding.com/NEWPARTSPAGES/lugs.htm
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Old 05-20-12, 07:26 PM
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Alright here's some photos. Keep in mind I haven't had a moment to clean it up yet. It's quite nasty really.













And just so you don't think I keep nasty bikes, my Pinarello Montello and Bill Davidson:

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Old 05-20-12, 07:30 PM
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Originally Posted by kc0yef
Vincitore had spearpoint lugs by Mercian

look at the lugs...without pictures your description needs some refinement
https://www.framebuilding.com/NEWPARTSPAGES/lugs.htm
Hmm, I may have used "spearpoint" incorrectly then. The pics speak for themselves I guess. Thanks!
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Old 05-20-12, 09:47 PM
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Odd, it doesn't look like much like a Raleigh to me (apart from the headbadge and stem obviously...) I wonder if it's a model that was only produced for the U.K. market?
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Old 05-20-12, 10:00 PM
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It doesn't match up to any known U.K. model either. What's more, that serial is a mystery as well.

Early Shimano parts and Campagnolo long-drops are an oddity as well - especially when paired with the stays that are directly mitered to the seat lug.

Quite frankly, I'm stumped. Almost tempted to say that it's a custom (semi-custom?) built frame drilled to accept a Raleigh headbadge.

-Kurt
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Old 05-20-12, 10:03 PM
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I generally think of spearpoints as the long lugs on the inside of the fork. Maybe I'm wrong, but that was the context that I learned it in.

The bike you posted has pointed lugs with small windows that probably give away the lug type, but I have not seen them before now.

The lack of fastback stays on the seat cluster indicates that this is not a Professional, unless early versions of the Professional did not have fastback stays. Everything from the late 1960s onwards had fastback stays.

The two models made with Campy parts were the Professional and the International. If the Campy mechs are original, then this would have to be an International, or something that pre-dates an International. The Dura-Ace brakes are not original. Titlist rear derailleurs are from the 1960s (?).

It's an interesting bike nonetheless, and it will clean up nicely. Hopefully, it will look as good as your other two bikes when refurbished.
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Old 05-20-12, 10:09 PM
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Originally Posted by TimmyT
I generally think of spearpoints as the long lugs on the inside of the fork. Maybe I'm wrong, but that was the context that I learned it in.
That's correct - though I've seen some people refer to headlugs with long nozzle cuts as having a "spearpoint" design. Confusing, no doubt.

Originally Posted by TimmyT
The lack of fastback stays on the seat cluster indicates that this is not a Professional, unless early versions of the Professional did not have fastback stays. Everything from the late 1960s onwards had fastback stays.
The first-gen Pros had normal semi-wraparound stays (check out "Shadowfox" here on the forum; USAZorro's '69 Pro) and the Mk.V (1977-1982) had capped stays - but these were the only variants not to carry the fastback stays.

What's more, the stay treatment on the frame in question frame didn't become popular on production bikes until the 1990's, though some builders used this design back in the '70s and '80s as a stylistic touch. Given the long 1010/1010A Campy dropouts, nutted brakes, and double-hole lugs, I think we're looking at a 1970's frame.

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Old 05-20-12, 10:12 PM
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P.S.: If it weren't for the lousy lug shoreline, I'd be tempted to say the dual-hole lugs and seatstay treatment belong to an Eisentraut.

-Kurt
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Old 05-20-12, 10:23 PM
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Originally Posted by cudak888
P.S.: If it weren't for the lousy lug shoreline, I'd be tempted to say the dual-hole lugs and seatstay treatment belong to an Eisentraut.

-Kurt
I just about fell out of my chair when you mentioned Eisentraut. Would it be worth investigating this possibility further?

It's truly a joy to talk with people with such a wealth of knowledge as you guys. I sincerely appreciate the help here!

Would the fact that it has a serial hint that it may not be a custom/one off?

Would more pics of any part of the frame be of any use? I'd be happy to take a shot of whatever you'd like.

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Old 05-20-12, 10:42 PM
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Originally Posted by jerrymcdougal
I just about fell out of my chair when you mentioned Eisentraut. Would it be worth investigating this possibility further?
Don't even bother. It's a coincidence. Eisentraut would probably hang up the phone on you if he saw that lugwork.

Originally Posted by jerrymcdougal
Would the fact that it has a serial hint that it may not be a custom/one off?
Quite possible - and there's one other thing: That headlug shoreline does happen to correlate with Raleigh's craftsmanship (or lack of it). Still can't explain that one though.

-Kurt
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Old 05-20-12, 10:54 PM
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My apologies if this is absurd, but do you think contacting Raleigh themselves would be of any use? I'd imagine ID'ing old bikes for someone not looking to spend money with them is low on their priorities list.
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Old 05-20-12, 11:02 PM
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Originally Posted by jerrymcdougal
My apologies if this is absurd, but do you think contacting Raleigh themselves would be of any use? I'd imagine ID'ing old bikes for someone not looking to spend money with them is low on their priorities list.
Absolutely useless. Raleigh is simply a brand name now, and even if you did find someone knowledgeable in the organization, I seriously (in all honesty) doubt they could match the collective knowledge of this forum.

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Old 05-21-12, 08:54 AM
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Originally Posted by cudak888
Absolutely useless. Raleigh is simply a brand name now, and even if you did find someone knowledgeable in the organization, I seriously (in all honesty) doubt they could match the collective knowledge of this forum.

-Kurt
I suspected as much. Was just thinking they may have some master serial database, but I'm sure people here have the same database/knowledge. I'm sure you're correct that no one at Raleigh matches the knowledge of C&V, there's no question there!

Do you think there's any hope of identifying this beast, or should I accept it as a mystery? Short of consulting a couple of the guys who originally got me into and schooled me on vintage cycles, I don't know where I'd go. I live in Madison, WI so I could stop by Yellow Jersey and talk to Andy Muzi, but I'm not sure how much he knows about Raleigh. He's at least been in the business for quite some time.

Again, great thanks for the help!

-Jerry
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Old 05-21-12, 09:05 AM
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Originally Posted by Chris_in_Miami
Odd, it doesn't look like much like a Raleigh to me
Me either. Looks more Italian...
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Old 05-21-12, 09:07 AM
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Originally Posted by dbakl
Me either. Looks more Italian...
Which brings up the age-old question: What's the BB threading?

-Kurt
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Old 05-21-12, 09:20 AM
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Originally Posted by cudak888
Which brings up the age-old question: What's the BB threading?

-Kurt
That's a great question, can't believe I overlooked that. I'll check this evening when I get home from work and update this thread.

Thanks!
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Old 05-21-12, 07:00 PM
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Originally Posted by cudak888
Which brings up the age-old question: What's the BB threading?

-Kurt
It's Italian threaded! A Zeus marked "36x24F" Spins smooth as butter after all these years. Also, seatpost seems to be 27.2 and seat tube has no seam. Steerer has no markings whatsoever and is also chromed. Headtube does have a seam visible inside. No braze ons of any sort on the frame. Chrome is very thick, but is peeling/cracking a bit by the back dropouts.

I was quite amazed with how well everything came off. I was expecting everything to be seized up, but it came apart very easy. The crank wasn't on very tight at all, almost didn't need to use the crank puller. Headset was a bit stiff, but I've got a campy unit that should work well.

Does this narrow things down at all? Again many thanks!
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Old 05-21-12, 07:08 PM
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Looks like it'll clean up beautifully whatever it is.
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Old 05-21-12, 09:49 PM
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Originally Posted by FORDSVTPARTS
Looks like it'll clean up beautifully whatever it is.
I gave it a good "polish" with aluminum foil. The chrome is really bright under all the dirt!
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Old 05-22-12, 01:42 AM
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Old Gazelle? I am stumped.
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Old 05-22-12, 08:04 AM
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Originally Posted by jerrymcdougal
Does this narrow things down at all? Again many thanks!
At least we can be pretty sure it isn't a Raleigh. Someone must have drilled the headtube for the badge, and I wouldn't leave out the possibility that the chrome job was done at the same time.

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Old 05-22-12, 09:21 AM
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Upon further investigation I can tell the head badge isn't perfectly centered on the headtube. I suppose the factory could have done such a thing, but more apt that it was an afterthought.

I'd sure love to ID this thing. Is there any resource that lists serial number formats? It seems the L-6844 format is relatively uncommon, at least from what I am familiar with, which is admittedly little.
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