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1973 Paramount: Stuck Bottom Bracket Cup

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1973 Paramount: Stuck Bottom Bracket Cup

Old 05-29-12, 01:56 PM
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fender1
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1973 Paramount: Stuck Bottom Bracket Cup

I got this frame from Cudak888 a couple of weeks back, in the great purge of 2012. The frame had been repainted and the bb re-threaded Italian from English. I gave the frame a preliminary strip to make sure some of the surface rust was not a big deal. It is not.
[IMG][/IMG]
I let this cup soak in PB Blaster for a week, before going at it with the standard fixed cup removal tool. No dice. So I held the tool in place and hit the end with a hammer. No luck and the tool was destroyed in the process. I then tried the Sheldon brown home brew method and that did not work. Then I put the cup flats in a a bench vise and tried to use the frame as leverage. Nope. I took it to the LBS and they had the pro level Park tool and even with a 3ft cheater bar, the cup would not budge. Is this thing hopelessly stuck? Can I use a torch to heat it and break the bond? Any other ideas?
[IMG][/IMG]
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Old 05-29-12, 02:02 PM
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GO with heat, the sheldon tool, and a cheater bar. The fixed cup may have been loctitied in (it is Italian, and this is a common poor mechanic fix). I helped a local shop with a Holdsworth that had been retapped in the same manner. Whoever had done the job had red loctited the drive side cup on (I say drive side because the prior 'mechanic' had not only resorted to red loctite, but had reversed the cups, so the fixed cup was on the non drive side. Go figure). And get someone to help, it's a two person job.
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Old 05-29-12, 02:09 PM
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Soak it in Moob grease. Then watch the Youtube video of some hairy guy attacking a seat post.
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Old 05-29-12, 02:13 PM
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Since you're not worried about the paint, heat seems to be the next thing to try.
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Old 05-29-12, 02:16 PM
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Why does your British threaded frame have an Italian cup in it?

Try this thread: https://www.bikeforums.net/showthread...ht=fixed%20cup

Add heat as needed.
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Old 05-29-12, 02:19 PM
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This is what I use to ensure that a Park HCW fixed cup remover doesn't slip off and get rounded out when pounding on it. It's guaranteed to work:





Alternately, you can simply run a bolt through the cup and use a washer larger than the cup to keep the tool in place. Tighten it down, and hammer the tool as hard as possible.

-Kurt
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Old 05-29-12, 02:20 PM
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Originally Posted by miamijim View Post
Why does your British threaded frame have an Italian cup in it?
Stausty told me that it was like that ever since the previous owner had it. Someone had it tapped to Italian very early in the game.

Fender, mind if I use that headlug photo? I'd like to put that on The Headbadge to show that chrome-lug Paramounts are not all-chrome underneath the paint.

-Kurt
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Old 05-29-12, 02:34 PM
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Originally Posted by miamijim View Post
Why does your British threaded frame have an Italian cup in it?
Possibly original English threads got destroyed, so it was tapped out to the larger Italian size? Someone suggested that earlier, sounded likely.
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Old 05-29-12, 02:36 PM
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Would have been nice if you told him it was stuck before you sold it to him. We all get that stuff is used and somtimes things don't work out to our advantage, but you knew that cup was stuck. Don't worry about flipper karma, worry about real karma.
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Old 05-29-12, 02:39 PM
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are you preparing the frame for paint? why remove the fixed cup? does the shell need to be faced for some reason?
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Old 05-29-12, 02:40 PM
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Uh, are you turning it the right way? This is Italian now.

But, as stated earlier, they may have locktighted it in, in which case it may be the heat-removal variety.
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Old 05-29-12, 02:47 PM
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Originally Posted by cudak888 View Post

Alternately, you can simply run a bolt through the cup and use a washer larger than the cup to keep the tool in place. Tighten it down, and hammer the tool as hard as possible.

-Kurt
+1 .................This is what I do, and have not met one yet that will not come out.

for photos, see

https://www.bikeforums.net/showthread...l#post11769729

If you can get one, a mechanic's dead blow hammer is the one to use.

Edit:
The Sheldon tool, as well as the commercial fixed cup tools, all
work by friction, thus some of your impact advantage is lost in
the hammering......If this is Italian, thus RH threaded, a
regular fixed cup removal tool is a poor choice anyway.
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Old 05-29-12, 02:57 PM
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Originally Posted by cudak888 View Post
Stausty told me that it was like that ever since the previous owner had it. Someone had it tapped to Italian very early in the game.

Fender, mind if I use that headlug photo? I'd like to put that on The Headbadge to show that chrome-lug Paramounts are not all-chrome underneath the paint.

-Kurt
Kurt speaks the truth. I had it before him and realized the fact that the BB had been retapped to Italian. The owner previous to me indicated that the owner previous to *him* had it done in or around 1976. So that cup might well have been in there for 35+ years. I couldn't get that cup to move, but I didn't try that hard.

Good to know the rust is just a surface problem. I have a 50th Anniversary frame from the same source as this one that had very similar rust and paint chip issues.

Is it too early to just cut the cup out?
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Old 05-29-12, 02:57 PM
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Originally Posted by nikkorod View Post
Would have been nice if you told him it was stuck before you sold it to him. We all get that stuff is used and somtimes things don't work out to our advantage, but you knew that cup was stuck. Don't worry about flipper karma, worry about real karma.
It would have been nice had you asked me if I had even attempted to take the cup off in the reasonably short time frame that I bought the bike (answer = no). I had planned to install an Italian Campy BB cup on the other side, so it never occurred to me to pull the cup off in the first place.

I want to see you to provide irrefutable proof that I deliberately tried to fraud Fender1 if you so see it fit to publicly accuse me of it.

FYI - If Fender1 wants to return that Paramount for a full refund of purchase + shipping price, I'm ready to do so. Where are you going to find a fairer deal than that?

-Kurt
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Old 05-29-12, 03:03 PM
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Originally Posted by stausty View Post

Is it too early to just cut the cup out?
I hope so, because that's a dreadful job with some degree of risk
and it's already been tapped Italian, so from there all you got left
is threadless...............
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Old 05-29-12, 03:03 PM
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Campagnolo cup deserves the proper Campagnolo tool:

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Old 05-29-12, 03:06 PM
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Way to totally sell out stausty and take no personal responsibility, but we have come to expect that from you. Stausty didn't sell the frame to Fender, you did.

Originally Posted by cudak888 View Post
It would have been nice had you asked me if I had even attempted to take the cup off in the reasonably short time frame that I bought the bike (answer = no). Perhaps you can do your premature finger pointing at stausty and see how he likes it, seeing that he sold me the frame with the fixed cup still installed in it (for the record, I'm not blaming him either).

For the record, I had planned to install an Italian Campy BB cup on the other side, so it never occurred to me to pull the cup off in the first place.

-Kurt

P.S.: Seeing how you're so cocksure that I deliberately attempted to fraud Fender1, the only person who should be worried about bad karma is you.
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Old 05-29-12, 03:09 PM
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Originally Posted by nikkorod View Post
Way to totally sell out stausty and take no personal responsibility, but we have come to expect that from you. Stausty didn't sell the frame to Fender, you did.
By blaming me, you're blaming stausty equally. That's my point.

Read my revision - I'm willing to take back that frame for a full refund if Fender1 isn't satisfied with it.

Originally Posted by nikkorod View Post
...but we have come to expect that from you.
Provide concrete examples for this claim. If you feel obligated to attack me in public, I want to see provable facts that stick.

-Kurt
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Old 05-29-12, 03:20 PM
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I just don't have the time to search through 23,000 plus posts .

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Old 05-29-12, 03:38 PM
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Originally Posted by 3alarmer View Post
If this is Italian, thus RH threaded, a
regular fixed cup removal tool is a poor choice anyway.
Set the tool up from the other side and it'll turn the cup the proper direction, I think Sheldon says the same thing on his tool tip page.

Myself, I'd be inclined to take a torch to it instead, it's really the only thing that'll get red loctite to let go. There is a loctite remover or something but I think it only works on the blue stuff.
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Old 05-29-12, 03:54 PM
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Originally Posted by 3alarmer View Post
+1 .................This is what I do, and have not met one yet that will not come out.

for photos, see

https://www.bikeforums.net/showthread...l#post11769729

If you can get one, a mechanic's dead blow hammer is the one to use.

Edit:
The Sheldon tool, as well as the commercial fixed cup tools, all
work by friction, thus some of your impact advantage is lost in
the hammering......If this is Italian, thus RH threaded, a
regular fixed cup removal tool is a poor choice anyway.
I used the sheldon tool on a italian threaded BB with no problem. in that case you are turning the nut inside the BB and holding the head on the outside to get the right direction. I am not saying it as as stuck as this one. I also use about a 4 foot chunk of pipe as a cheater bar.
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Old 05-29-12, 03:58 PM
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Silly me. I thought this thread was about a stuck BB cup, which I maintain is probably loctited, quite likely with too strong a loctite. Heat and a cheater bar, plus a gorilla on loan from the Philly zoo, should remove it no problem.

In the interest of thread drift, I will say I would gladly deal with Kurt, but he must substantially lower the price of the PY should he wish to achieve this serendipity.

Also, I would like to say the Campy tool pictured above looks wimpy next to the proper Var tool.

Flame away, gentlemen, Just on the bottom bracket shell of the above Paramount.
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Old 05-29-12, 04:02 PM
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This provides me with another chance to use my favorite image:


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Old 05-29-12, 04:04 PM
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Auto mechanics use impact wrenches for a reason. The sudden
sharp impacts have a positively magical effect on stuck and
corroded threaded joints. When you set this up with either
Kurt, or my setups, you have the advantage of a poor man's
impact wrench........

I have only used one commercial fixed cup tool, and it really
did not work well in either direction, so perhaps i spoke prematurely.

I have tried the sheldon tool, also, and for my case, it didn't
work worth a **** (apologies to the memory of Mr. Browne, from
whom I have received much good advice in the past.)

I think I'm gonna go now, because I see a storm brewing
on the horizon, and I intend to seek shelter........
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Old 05-29-12, 04:17 PM
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