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Carbon Fibre = Wood

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Carbon Fibre = Wood

Old 05-30-12, 08:05 PM
  #1  
zazenzach
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Carbon Fibre = Wood

Trollsome thread title but it got your attention. I found the following reading pretty interesting:

https://desperadocycles.com/Lowdown_On_Tubing.html

"Wood is a fiber reinforced with resin. No different is carbon fiber that is used in the cycling industry. If all we were interested in was the main frame to comply with its original intention of supporting the rider and components, we would still be making bicycles out of wood. The fact that technology has driven the design to find a fine balance between strength and light weight while allowing for some kind of reliability, steel will always be the best choice for construction.

Carbon steel (the stuff your olí ballooner bike was made of) has a yield strength of around 80,000lbs/sqinch. The highest strength aluminum tubing offerings are around that so it is my statement that anywhere aluminum can be replaced with carbon fiber (i.e. cranksets) would be a good choice. The issue here is strength in the main frame is crucial for the over all dynamics of cycling. Our current Nitronic Stainless is about 265,000lbs/sqinch and the True Temper S-3 is almost that. That my friend is 3 times the strength of Carbon Fiber. Remember, the resin is plastic and is really the catalyst for holding the fibers together. The problem with the overall equation for carbon fiber frames is that the yield strength vs. tinsel strength is so close together that you are going to have catastrophic failure when it does go and in order to have a frame as strong as a high end steel frame it would have to be 3 times as heavy. To top that, the majority of carbon fiber frames use aluminum in the bottom bracket and headtube. Electrolysis is created when you bring these two elements (this is how a battery works) together and the bonding breaks down. Try to find a frame manufacture that gives you a lifetime guarantee!"
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Old 05-30-12, 08:13 PM
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Most of that doesn't make sense. Why would you bother to post it? It's just a bunch of run on thoughts without a purpose or conclusion
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Old 05-30-12, 08:20 PM
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Originally Posted by StanSeven View Post
Most of that doesn't make sense.
+1.

FWIW, I really enjoy my steel framed bikes; I have several and they all have their place in my stable of bikes. I also enjoy my carbon fiber framed bike, which is the best fitting, lightest weight bike I've ever owned, and I'm amazed at its ride qualities. Bottom line: bicycles are fun, and different frame materials are okay in my book.
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Old 05-30-12, 08:22 PM
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Tinsel strength?
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Old 05-30-12, 08:25 PM
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Originally Posted by Grand Bois View Post
Tinsel strength?
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Old 05-30-12, 08:29 PM
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I believe that carbon fiber was pushed by the bicycle manufacturers because of an extremely high profit margin, not because it makes for a higher quality bike. I'm sure it's much easier to teach low skilled workers to laminate a papier mache frame than it is to teach a craftsman to machine and weld a steel frame. Not to mention the cost of high quality steel tubing/lugs over the raw materials in carbon fiber construction.
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Old 05-30-12, 08:42 PM
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I like turtles!
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Old 05-30-12, 08:55 PM
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Originally Posted by Grand Bois View Post
Tinsel strength?
Originally Posted by iab View Post
+1

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Old 05-30-12, 09:30 PM
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Originally Posted by zazenzach View Post
TTo top that, the majority of carbon fiber frames use aluminum in the bottom bracket and headtube. Electrolysis is created when you bring these two elements (this is how a battery works) together and the bonding breaks down. Try to find a frame manufacture that gives you a lifetime guarantee!"
I am pretty sure that every modern manufacturer uses a fibre glass insulator between all aluminum and carbon fibre bonds.
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Old 05-30-12, 10:17 PM
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Cupcakes = Donuts.
I'll have one of each.
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Old 05-30-12, 10:36 PM
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Originally Posted by BluesDaddy View Post
Cupcakes = Donuts.
I'll have one of each.
Ummmm Donuts....

What about Renovo that uses resin impregnated wood?
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Old 05-31-12, 01:39 AM
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There is carbon in wood. There is carbon in steel. Therefore trees = steel.
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Old 05-31-12, 02:23 AM
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Someone once told me carbon fiber was originally made from burned rayon and rayon is made from wood pulp. Now carbon is made from injecting high temp gasses upon each other.
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Old 05-31-12, 03:19 AM
  #14  
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Originally Posted by Snydermann View Post
I believe that carbon fiber was pushed by the bicycle manufacturers because of an extremely high profit margin, not because it makes for a higher quality bike. I'm sure it's much easier to teach low skilled workers to laminate a papier mache frame than it is to teach a craftsman to machine and weld a steel frame. Not to mention the cost of high quality steel tubing/lugs over the raw materials in carbon fiber construction.
Whaaat? I have had a Look frame from the mid 90s (my fav. still in many ways) that was all hand made. Don't tell me monkeys with low skill made that. while I love carbon bikes and is, by far my favorite material (have many over the years, my current is a Ridley), I am looking to have a steel frame made with my company name on the downtube. something about the way they look. I could have done that with easily with a carbon frame. I wouldn't argue about quality, but for sure a better performance bike in a racing situation.
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Old 05-31-12, 04:44 AM
  #15  
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Try to find a frame manufacture that gives you a lifetime guarantee!
Aegis. Developed the Trek 2500 Composite frames. An internal debate about laying up carbon fiber frames resulted in a split. One group went west, formed into a little company that knows about carbon fiber, Kestrel. The rest stayed behind, continued with defense contracts and frames. Outstanding frames with a lifetime warranty.

Carbon fiber Wood

Carbon fiber = Flax (Linum Usitatissimum)
The Mesuuew MF-5.
Johan Mesuuew a.k.a. "The Lion of Flanders," knows a thing or two about riding on cobblestones.

Don't get me wrong. I ride steel, but I'd really like to get my hands on one of those frames.

Last edited by RobbieTunes; 05-31-12 at 05:54 AM.
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Old 05-31-12, 05:22 AM
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Wabbits is basically chickens...
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Old 05-31-12, 05:30 AM
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If I sold you a basic plastic drinking straw and you paid $100.00 for it, I could offer you a lifetime warranty too. Original owner of course, subject to my approval.

I'm sure some of the early plastic bikes were quality and probably expensive to produce, especially the bikes with metal lugs. We'll see how they hold up over time, we already know how long a steel frame will last. Should we list the many products produced over the years that were well accepted only to eventually crash and burn when it was discovered the product actually sucked?

Hey, Ford even convinced 2,000,000 people a new Pinto was a good idea. Not to mention how many people thought buying a USED Pinto was a good idea. AND they managed to sell that quality automobile for 10 years until people finally realized . . .


Last edited by Snydermann; 05-31-12 at 06:06 AM.
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Old 05-31-12, 05:31 AM
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Originally Posted by Snydermann View Post
I believe that carbon fiber was pushed by the bicycle manufacturers because of an extremely high profit margin, not because it makes for a higher quality bike. I'm sure it's much easier to teach low skilled workers to laminate a papier mache frame than it is to teach a craftsman to machine and weld a steel frame. Not to mention the cost of high quality steel tubing/lugs over the raw materials in carbon fiber construction.
I can't tell if you're joking or not...
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Old 05-31-12, 05:52 AM
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Originally Posted by Snydermann View Post
If I sold you a basic plastic drinking straw and you paid $100.00 for it, I could offer you a lifetime warranty too. Original owner of course, subject to my approval.

Yep, the Aegis modern frames were over $3000, I'm pretty sure. I was just answering the question in the article.

Hey, Ford even convinced 2,000,000 people a Pinto was a good idea.
My wife got ticketed for 77mph in a Pinto. I still don't believe it, even though the judge did.
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Old 05-31-12, 06:22 AM
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Originally Posted by Mos6502 View Post
I can't tell if you're joking or not...
Not so much joking as playing devil's advocate.

If it makes someone happy to buy a plasic bike, more power to them. I won't own one, I just don't like them and I don't feel the need to own what is touted as the latest technology. I'm also not a good enough rider than any performance gained from a plastic frame will make any difference to me. If it takes me a few moments longer to get over the hill or I have to work a little harder, who cares.

Maybe someone who reads what I wrote is on the fence about plastic vs steel and will eventually decide to buy a steel bike that they can pass on to their grandkids.
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Old 05-31-12, 06:25 AM
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The 1.6l Kent produced 54HP which was plenty of power to achieve 77MPH in a sub 2000lb chassis. The OHV variant produced 76hp. After the 3rd year of production the 1.6l engine was phased out and the 2.0 and larger engines produced between 86 and even 100+ horsepower and the power/weight ratio was superior to that which is seen today in most small cars as a sub 2000lb car is hard to find with today's crash-worthiness standards.
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Old 05-31-12, 07:23 AM
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Originally Posted by Snydermann View Post
Not so much joking as playing devil's advocate.

If it makes someone happy to buy a plasic bike, more power to them. I won't own one, I just don't like them and I don't feel the need to own what is touted as the latest technology. I'm also not a good enough rider than any performance gained from a plastic frame will make any difference to me. If it takes me a few moments longer to get over the hill or I have to work a little harder, who cares.

Maybe someone who reads what I wrote is on the fence about plastic vs steel and will eventually decide to buy a steel bike that they can pass on to their grandkids.

I was commenting on your idea about steel frames being more expensive/requiring more skill to produce. In terms of mass production it just isn't so. It's cheaper and faster to build a frame with steel and the process can be almost entirely automated.

Many of the classic steel bicycles we fawn over on this forum were built largely by automated processes, especially after the 1970s.
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Old 05-31-12, 08:16 AM
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Originally Posted by BluesDaddy View Post
Cupcakes = Donuts.
I'll have one of each.
Uh, sorry, but everyone knows:

Donuts > Cupcakes. Particularly true for cake donuts, with chocolate icing, and maybe some nuts.....
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Old 05-31-12, 08:19 AM
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Everyone knows what "cupcakes" are a euphemism for...
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Old 05-31-12, 08:20 AM
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Originally Posted by Mos6502 View Post
I was commenting on your idea about steel frames being more expensive/requiring more skill to produce. In terms of mass production it just isn't so. It's cheaper and faster to build a frame with steel and the process can be almost entirely automated.

Many of the classic steel bicycles we fawn over on this forum were built largely by automated processes, especially after the 1970s.

You could be right. But, I'm pretty sure that a high quality tube set, pile of lugs, and the associated inventory would be more expensive than a few yards of carbon fiber and epoxy.

Then milling the steel, cleaning and brazing, then filing and chemical cleaning before painting seems more labor intensive than laying some papier mache into a mold (once the mold has been made). From what I've seen carbon fiber factories are not completely automated so it's only fair to assume that the average steel bicycle factory would not be fully automated either. Welding or brazing is a skill that takes years to perfect. I doubt it takes long to learn how to lay a carbon lamination into a mold.

Let's not forget about the elimination of competition. Back in the day when steel frames ruled the planet how many builders were making steel frames? Thousands? By convincing cyclists that plastic bikes were better you've just eliminated much of your competition in the carbon frame market. Now you can charge higher prices.

Last edited by Snydermann; 05-31-12 at 08:25 AM.
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