dirty tiger

I would tend to agree, It's spendy, but it isn't super-expensive. Some of his bikes, like the Atlantis and A. Homer Simps...er Hilsen, can be had for around $2k.

That makes them a viable alternative to a Madone or CAAD 8/10 (popular bikes around here)...And probably a better investment for most recreational riders.

fender1

I can say that my Riv is the best riding bike I have come across. I don't ride racing bikes so I can't & won't compare it to something of that type. It has the stability of my P-15 Paramount and the rigidity of my newer OX Platimnum framed Salsa La Cruz. As far as I know, the A. Homer (which I have ) is made of True Temper OX platinum and Reynolds 725 tubes. It is built by Waterford but is less expensive that the same frame spec'd directly from Waterford. I was able to fit 35mm tires and fenders with no special modifications.

A P-15 Paramount went for $575. Adjusted for inflation, today it would cost $2,456. A complete Riv. A. Homer Hilsen would cost about $3k in todays dollars or $700 in 1975 dollars. It just does not that seem that expensive relative to the fact that it is a small batch product and most times the manufacturing costs are higher as such. Schwinn made thousands of Paramounts so it makes sense that the cost was a bit lower.

https://www.schwinnbikeforum.com/SLDB...dtail_7579.htm

https://www.usinflationcalculator.com/

RJM

The Roadeo, Hilsen, Atlantis, Hunqapillar, Bombadil are made in Wisconsin. The Sam Hillborne 64cm is also made in Wisconsin. The Betty Foy/Yves Gomez and Hillborne are made in Taiwan.

Riv also does custom jobbies, I think the price on those is $3500.00

I agree with your sentiment here, I see no reason why Rivs can't be part of C&V.

I just don't think the price of Rivs are that far out there; I don't think my Hillborne was. They are nicely made, lugged steel, nicely painted and designed frames that have a lot of really cool features if that is what you are into. If you are into light, italian, tubular sportin' stuff, Rivs probably aren't for you.

The Bombadil and somewhat the Hunqapillar is Riv's version of a mountain bike, so they do make one. Is it as nice as the older Bridgestones? I don't know, the people who own them seem to really love them.

3alarmer 

[h=2]Pcad Makes Grant Peterson Cry[/h]

.........................only vaguely suitable for work.

robo

I was counting Taiwan as a 1st world country along with Japan and the US.

And you're right, a $1,200-3,500 frame is not impossible for a middle class person to buy, but given all the other options out there, you would have to be dead set on a Rivendell to spend that much when there are excellent if more utilitarian options for well under $1,000. Or you would have to be wealthy enough that you just buy what you want.

KonAaron Snake 

I agree, and it probably wouldn't be what I bought, but I have spent Rivendell money on bikes, and maybe a little more.

One thing to consider is that Rivs actually hold their value a lot better than most others. You'll do a lot better buying and selling a Riv 20 years down the road than most other bikes out there. In terms of best value in bikes, I think it's a new custom Hetchins. They're surprisingly inexpensive, especially with the current exchange rate, and people haven't figured out that they're pretty cheap new - so they'll pay new prices + for a modernish Hetchins.

Ciufalon

I think Grant has a specific business model that he follows while at the same time sharing a lot of good information, wisdom, and some strong opinions. He does it in an entertaining way that I generally enjoy. Whether you find particular Rivendell bike models appealing or not, they do fill a niche in the market and I believe they are quality products. It is difficult to fault one for delivering quality products and meeting market demand of a specific market segment - and actually working hard to develop or create that segment. Grant also seems to try to keep manufacturing in the U.S. when it is possible to do so. Like many quality off-the-shelf bikes, if the geometry of the bike and purpose is a good fit, I am sure just about any owner would love it.

I wanted a Saluki when they were making them, but could not afford one. Like a lot of C&Ver's, I have sought to quell my lust for bikes such as Rivendells and other similar bikes by reaching back to older, comparable models. A recent acquisition of mine that I consider to be a poor mans Riv is a 1983 Trek 850 I picked up with the help of fellow C&Ver facilitating. The steering geometry is identical to a Homer Hilson (650B model) or Surly Trucker Deluxe, but with much longer chain stays and a slacker ST angle than either of them.

dirty tiger

I agree with him of the fat tire thing. I ride with 700x47c on my Cross Check. Love 'em

Puget Pounder

These threads grow faster than I can read.

What he says makes sense to me, but a lot of it is phrased in a pretentious way. It annoys me when he has to bash on things that others may like to promote his own products. This one is a litte much for me: https://www.rivbike.com/product-p/carbonomas.htm

I love Rivbikes. They are very classy and I would love to own one.

Muttleyone

Sorry, I often the "E" in words, like ******bag.....see what I mean?

Mutt

rekmeyata

I didn't say it was shady...but there is no way to tell if they were being shady either! Grant never put decals on the bike to say what tubes were used, nor would he divulge the information publicly or to a buyer, I know I asked!

He also wouldn't discuss how much a bike weighed, which for touring use it doesn't really matter.

I don't think someone who is racing is going to think "Rivendell" as the first place to go to get a racing bike!

Overbuilt? The Atlantis wasn't overbuilt by any means of the imagination, the twin top tube models were, but people have been touring with heavy loads on regular bikes and on Atlantis's for years and never cried out for an extra top tube. And there are other bikes on the market that are built for more heavy touring then the Atlantis is built to handle. The Atlantis is more of a girly bike, or a metrosexual bike, sure it looks nice but don't use it on a 1 year expedition self contained tour.

I don't think Grant is using poor quality steel either, but he could be using mid level steel to boost profits.

He has a niche market place and more power to him for marketing to that segment of the population; but like I said before, I know there are better bikes for the same price range as an Atlantis.

Hangtownmatt

I recently bought myself a Sam Hillborne and wasn't even in the market! My son and daughter were in a swim meet at UC Berkley and my wife and I took a little side trip to Walnut Creek during some downtime. She was interested in their mixte; the Betty Foy. We didn't have a lot of time but the staff took the appropriate measurements and put her on the Betty and myself, just for kicks, on the A. Homer Hilsen. Wild horses couldn't drag me to a double top tubed Hillborne. Everything felt great. The service was terrific and there was absolutely zero pressure to buy. Unfortunately, we just didn't have enough time to fully test ride the bikes.

A little background on myself. I'm a C&V'r type. My three rides are a 1983 Nishiki Sport, a 1986 Bianchi Squadra and a 1996 Trek 950 MTB. All three have been upgraded and modified in the Rivendell fashion. I had absolutely no need for another bike, but for the last couple years I was seriously test riding bikes whenever the opportunity presented itself. And with my kids being swimers we were on the road a lot and had plenty of opportunities. I test rode a lot of bikes, but nothing fit better than what I already had.

Shortly thereafter we had a weekend where both kids were out of town at the same time! We jumped on this opportunity and made an appointment with Rivendell for an extended test ride. I left it up to them whether they set me up with a Hilsen or a Hillborne and told them right up front I wasn't in the market. We were there for the Betty Foy and I was just along for another test ride opportunity. When we arrived everything was set up and ready to go. Grant remeasured to be sure, but the previous measurements were right on.

To make a long story short, we went on a 4-hour test ride. At the end of it all we came home with a Betty Foy, a double top tube green Sam Hillborne, and a couple smiles ear-to-ear. I think what people seem to miss is that the value of product is sometimes greater than the sum of its parts. Yes, there are less expensive alternatives, but I had never felt more comfortable and confident on a bike. I couldn't let this opportunity pass.

Matt

TimeTravel_0

If I see someone riding a Rivendell, I know they are a brother, a fellow traveler.

Rocket-Sauce 

It is my wife's size too....


She already rides a 60cm 1990 RB-1...

corwin1968

I'm a big fan of Rivendell and a bigger fan of Grant Petersen. At first, I was simply enthralled with the appearances of the bikes, particularly the A. Homer Hilsen. It didn't hurt that I'd been a fan of comfortable, upright steel bikes with wider tires since 1995. Over time, I began to have a stronger interest in frame geometry and materials in my quest for a "perfect" bike. I'm currently riding a mid-90's Trek that is at least 75% there and after much reading and experimentation, I've concluded that Rivendell's Hunqapillar may just be the sweet spot for me. I won't buy without riding and even then, the frameset's price of $1875 is prohibitive for me. There is a new budget fat tire heavy duty touring bike coming from Rivendell next Summer. This is supposed to be in the price range of the Hillborne and Betty Foy (around $1100). I may wait to see what results from this bike or I may just buy a Soma Saga, which is extremely close to the Hunqapillar in it's geometry, it not in it's looks.

Regardless of which bike I buy, I will continue to support Rivendell by purchasing from them if they have what I want.

rekmeyata

Velo Orange had a real nice fully lugged steel bike called the Rando, take a gander at it. It cost $500 on sale right now, of course you will have to get components and wheels. This bike looks better then the Soma.

escii_35

About the only thing I disagree with is his stance on clipless. Commute in urban heavy traffic with wet morning conditions 8 months out of the year sprinting from light to light...

I really really like what he stocks for clothes!! They just frekin work right for not much more than sweatshop stuff.

duanedr 

At one point, I thought I'd found my cycling guru - to the point where, in '95 I ordered a Road Standard built by Waterford of 753 tubing. I loved it (and still do). I bought the clothes too. Still have them and love them. I like his message that cycling doesn't have to be about racing. It can be about just getting around or going out into the country side with friends. We don't have to wear plastic clothes that glow in the dark. We don't always have to see who is fastest. His thoughts on friction shifting are just silly though.

I built the bike up as a sport touring bike but more toward the sport side with MA2 rims, Sachs New Success (rebranded Campy Chorus) 8sp Ergo group and such. I used it for riding and commuting in Seattle, then in Dublin Ireland and then back in Seattle. I did a 2 week tour in France/Belgium on it. In 2004, I got back into racing and it was my race bike - still with the Sachs Ergo shifters/derailleurs (and after something like 50,000 miles, I NEVER had an indexing problem where friction was needed!). It's not the reason I didn't win. However, i didn't want to crash it and ruin it so, I purchased a carbon Trek for racing and put it in the garage. It became my winter bike with fenders, lights etc. On a team ride during the winter, we ended up piling up in a slippery turn and I bent the fork. It hung on the wall in the garage for a few years and then i sent it back to Waterford to be straightened and painted. Here's a current picture. I'm sure Grant will love it.

irwin7638

Rivendell bikes are great rides. I bought a Hunqapillar a few years ago for touring and loved it so much I wanted a lighter bike with the same geometry so I ended up buying a Hillborne this year. I can't seem to stay off the Hillborne, it's just too much fun. They beauty of the bikes and paint jobs are what initially get the attention, but the subtle changes he has made in the geometry is what really matters. They are not just expensive imitations of vintage frames. He recently sent an e-mail explaining his choices of tubing in detail. It makes sense, the ones built in the US (the expensive low volume bikes) are made from a combination of Reynolds 753 and True Temper OX. The higher volume bikes are built in Taiwan, he just said they are heat-treated cro-mo, but he did say the Hunq was made with Kaisai 8630 when it was designed. I'm sure the Hillborne and Betty Foy are made of a similar grade.
Grant's ideas about certain things are quirky and sometimes defy common sense like; blinky lights are dangerous because they attract drunks. Overall though, he believes in cycling for transportation and fun, not pretend racing. I think he is right, more people would enjoy the sport more, and more often, if they rode more comfortable and practical bikes.

How did a GP thread fall through the cracks for two months?.

Marc

rekmeyata

I don't think anyone is arguing that. Personally I think their great bikes, but I also think their over priced. I got a Mercian for the price of an Atlantis, but the Mercian came with big selection of colors, huge variety of custom stuff including bosses, lugs, and tube sets, none of that Grant could do with the Atlantis, he could with the Rivendell except for the lugs and tube sets, but that would make the Rivendell about $1,000 more then the Mercian. You can get another custom bike called the Shamrock for about the same cost as the Atlantis and it too comes with a huge variety of custom stuff including custom lugs.

Italuminium

The mercian custom program is nice for people who like to design bikes themselves, who really take the time to research geo and put many many miles on all their bikes so they know what brazeons, tubing etc. they want. Grant takes all that work out of your hands - for a hefty sum, though. And yeah, bikes are like clothes, the label on it matters for most people.

VeloBrox

Threads like these remind me of Marxists chastising each other while the world marches on outside. Here we are, a small group of misfits that will never put a dent in the regular bike market, arguing about a guy who provides stuff that is very similar to what we want. BUT HE PUTS DOUBLE TOP TUBES ON HIS BIKES! And he probably belongs to The People's Front of Judea, too.

In all seriousness, can anybody explain to me the differences between Grant Peterson and Jan Heine's philosophy? As far as I've gathered

- Heine advocates low trail and luggage in the front
- Peterson favors higher trail and wider (mustache) bars
- Heine feels 650b tires are a value onto itself and that wide 700c will never get the same feel
- Peterson puts 650b on smaller sizes and 700c on larger
- Heine adheres to old-school aestethics, level top tubes and all
- Peterson will do anything to get the handlebars up

In sum Heine seems to be more "rules-driven" than Peterson, who is more pragmatic. Heine's rules do not seem to be dogmatic, but are a result of personal experience and testing (combined with a feeling that the old guys generally got it right). Chris from VeloOrange will then be closer to Heine than Peterson. What are your thoughts, gents?

rekmeyata

The Atlantis is simply a production bike, it is not custom made, so like any production bike Grant finds a size that will fit as close as he can. He charges just almost as much for a fully equipped Altlantis as Mercian (and Shamrock) does for a custom job (actually closer to a price between a Rivendell and a Atlantis). Mercian also helps with the sizing so you get the right geometry, and as already mentioned Atlantis does not. Grant doesn't take the work out of your hands, you have to enlist the help of someone to make critical measurements so Grant can make a custom Rivendell (not the Atlantis) for you, just like Mercian and any other custom builder would do.

When I got my Mercian I happened to be in the UK on a business/personal trip and went to Derby and they custom measured me and then made my bike with the features that I wanted (the build process took 3 months so they had to send it to my house).

I am not saying the Atlantis is a bad bike, in fact just the opposite, but I think for the money one can spend an additional $200 to $500 and get a true custom built bike. Shamrock even has very nice Sachs Nervex lugs they can put on for a small up charge; Shamrock will also do ANYTHING you want, and they even say they won't judge your taste. I've actually been to the Shamrock shop in Indianapolis just to see it, and people there are very nice, like the Mercian people, and you and leave there knowing these folks know what their doing.

Shamrock by the way is such a good builder that Sachs recommends them on his website, I find it odd Sachs didn't recommend Rivendell...

rekmeyata

A low trail bike requires more steering input, or rather more physical effort to make the bike lean into a turn and of course more effort to get it back out of the lean from the turn. What's weird about this effect is that at high speeds the bike will return to neutral faster then a high trail, you would think it would be the opposite.

A high trail bike is a bit more effective for touring due to it's better low speed behavior.

Please note, high vs low trail is not a radical handling change from one to the other, more subtle then anything.

BUT, everyone's idea of how a bike should handle is different, to say one is better then the other is just not right, I know people who tour on low and others ride on high and they both have no problems. Besides it's more about getting use to the bike anyway be it low or high, once you get use to the way it handles you're not going care if it's low or high.

The reason for the tire size differences is that on smaller frames the 650 allows a bit more clearance between your toes and the front wheel so in sharp slow speed turns your foot won't come in contact with the front wheel causing a potential problem.

Higher handlebars are better for touring, it puts less stress on your hands, neck and back, and it allows for better control of a loaded bike as does wider handlebars. Mustache bars are just weird in my opinion, perhaps quirky is more accurate, and Grant tends to be quirky. I've never tried Mustache bars but really have no desire to try them either, I have yet to see a mustache equipped touring bike on the road.

I thought both Heine and Peterson like old school aestethics? Grant has both but his non level top tubes are only slightly angled, not as severe as some I've seen. The sloped top tube is suppose to help one mount and dismount a fully loaded bike easier then a level tube, this may be important for someone who has some sort of limited mobility. Both of my touring bikes are level top tube styles and I don't have problems.

So in summary neither is right or wrong, just a difference in philosophy that while different either can be learned to be ridden by the rider without thought as to whether or not they have a Heine or a Peterson design philosophy.

Doohickie

I am fairly impressed with the Rivendell line, although they are out of my price range. I think most of what Peterson says makes sense as well, although a lot of what he says talks about cycling for the masses, not needing special clothes to ride, and how affordable cycling is. This just seems to be diametrically opposed to the products he sells.