Go Back  Bike Forums > Bike Forums > Classic & Vintage
Reload this Page >

Help identifying this vintage frame. Cinelli???

Notices
Classic & Vintage This forum is to discuss the many aspects of classic and vintage bicycles, including musclebikes, lightweights, middleweights, hi-wheelers, bone-shakers, safety bikes and much more.

Help identifying this vintage frame. Cinelli???

Old 07-09-12, 05:25 PM
  #1  
Junior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 11
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Help identifying this vintage frame. Cinelli???

I recently aquired a very old bike frame and fork from a friends grandfathers estate. He and his family were track racers for many years. I am trying to identify what kind it is. All the paint has been sanded off and on the bottom of the bike there is some engraved letters and below it what appears to be a serial number. The letters are VERY hard to read, it says something like 'NERVEX'' or something like that. The serial numbers are the following 59 3064 D22 E38 in between the 59 and 3064 there is a small digit which appears to be a 0 or a backwards c and between 3064 and D22 there is what looks like a small 0 and between D22 and E38 there is a very small 2. The fork bolts and bearing cups say Campagnolo Itally Patent on them. Any ideas on what this is or details about it from the pics or numbers? Here's some pictures





camncars is offline  
Old 07-09-12, 05:32 PM
  #2  
Senior Member
 
jet sanchEz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 8,073
Liked 862 Times in 388 Posts
Looks like a Mercian. They are still in business, send them the serial number and they may be able to identify it for you.

Nervex are the style of lugs that the bike has been constructed with.
jet sanchEz is offline  
Old 07-09-12, 06:46 PM
  #3  
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: B.C.
Posts: 189

Bikes: ritcheys{2** rm blizzard Geo elrick drop frame and acollection of parts bikes in waiting

Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
precious

Originally Posted by camncars
I recently aquired a very old bike frame and fork from a friends grandfathers estate. He and his family were track racers for many years. I am trying to identify what kind it is. All the paint has been sanded off and on the bottom of the bike there is some engraved letters and below it what appears to be a serial number. The letters are VERY hard to read, it says something like 'NERVEX'' or something like that. The serial numbers are the following 59 3064 D22 E38 in between the 59 and 3064 there is a small digit which appears to be a 0 or a backwards c and between 3064 and D22 there is what looks like a small 0 and between D22 and E38 there is a very small 2. The fork bolts and bearing cups say Campagnolo Itally Patent on them. Any ideas on what this is or details about it from the pics or numbers? Here's some pictures





I like the raw frame look ,clean it up and clear cote, look for #on steering tube of fork . threading of bb may determine origin. But its like a fine blade , handwork ,mana, etc ! Have a Golum moment !
lee kenney is offline  
Old 07-09-12, 07:03 PM
  #4  
rhm
multimodal commuter
 
rhm's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: NJ, NYC, LI
Posts: 19,809

Bikes: 1940s Fothergill, 1959 Allegro Special, 1963? Claud Butler Olympic Sprint, Lambert 'Clubman', 1974 Fuji "the Ace", 1976 Holdsworth 650b conversion rando bike, 1983 Trek 720 tourer, 1984 Counterpoint Opus II, 1993 Basso Gap, 2010 Downtube 8h, and...

Liked 575 Times in 340 Posts
Nice frame. I have nothing positive to add, other than that Nervex is a French company that made the lugs, BB shell, fork crown. The number on the BB is not a serial number; it is part of the casting. Keep looking for a serial number elsewhere --dropouts, lugs, fork crown, etc. I realize you've given us photos of most of these, and no serial number appears, but keep looking.
rhm is offline  
Old 07-09-12, 07:08 PM
  #5  
Decrepit Member
 
Scooper's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Santa Rosa, California
Posts: 10,488

Bikes: Waterford 953 RS-22, several Paramounts

Liked 71 Times in 59 Posts
The numbers on the Nervex BB shell aren't serial numbers, they specify the frame angles, tubing bore size, distance between chainstays, etc.

__________________
- Stan

my bikes

Science doesn't care what you believe.
Scooper is offline  
Old 07-09-12, 07:18 PM
  #6  
Decrepit Member
 
Scooper's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Santa Rosa, California
Posts: 10,488

Bikes: Waterford 953 RS-22, several Paramounts

Liked 71 Times in 59 Posts
The lugs are the Nervex "Professional" lugset.

__________________
- Stan

my bikes

Science doesn't care what you believe.
Scooper is offline  
Old 07-09-12, 07:43 PM
  #7  
Stop reading my posts!
 
unworthy1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 12,699
Liked 1,137 Times in 840 Posts
the forkcrown is...I don't know. Might be something from Nervex, but isn't a stock pattern I'm familiar with. Did you mean that the fork ends are Campagnolo, or do you mean the headset? Any stamp on the track ends? Strange brake bridge (and what's that doing there if it's a track bike? more like a road/path) Whatever it is, it's pretty darn nice!
unworthy1 is offline  
Old 07-09-12, 08:25 PM
  #8  
Junior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 11
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
The headset is Campagnolo. I have inspected every inch of it and can't seem to find a serial number. I know this question may be in the wrong section, but what is something like this worth in US dollars? Any one else chime in on this mystery bike?
camncars is offline  
Old 07-09-12, 09:20 PM
  #9  
Decrepit Member
 
Scooper's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Santa Rosa, California
Posts: 10,488

Bikes: Waterford 953 RS-22, several Paramounts

Liked 71 Times in 59 Posts
The French used metric tube sizes (28mm O.D. seat tube and down tube, 26mm O.D. top tube) while most of the rest of the world used English tube sizes (28.6mm O.D. seat tube and down tube, 25.4mm O.D. top tube). If you have a caliper, you can measure the top tube diameter to see if it's French or something else.

It's definitely a quality frameset. Considering the relatively high demand for older frames with ornate lugs like those Nervex Professionals and track ends, I'd guess the right buyer might pay $500 or $600 (assuming the angles and seat tube and top tube lengths are fairly normal).
__________________
- Stan

my bikes

Science doesn't care what you believe.

Last edited by Scooper; 07-09-12 at 09:25 PM.
Scooper is offline  
Old 07-10-12, 06:25 AM
  #10  
Junior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 11
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
The seat/down tube is 28.6 and the top tube is 25.4
Is there any other measurments I should do to heop identify it?
I am not famailar with bikes whatsoever, so please be clear if there are any terms used that you think I may not understand.
Thanks
camncars is offline  
Old 07-10-12, 07:56 AM
  #11  
Decrepit Member
 
Scooper's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Santa Rosa, California
Posts: 10,488

Bikes: Waterford 953 RS-22, several Paramounts

Liked 71 Times in 59 Posts
This diagram shows the main frame dimensions. The top tube length between the intersection of the centerline of the head tube and the centerline of the top tube, and the intersection of the seat tube centerline and the top tube centerline, and the seat tube length from the center of the bottom bracket shell to the top of the seat tube are two key measurements. The chainstay length is also important.

__________________
- Stan

my bikes

Science doesn't care what you believe.

Last edited by Scooper; 07-10-12 at 12:16 PM.
Scooper is offline  
Old 07-10-12, 08:07 AM
  #12  
www.theheadbadge.com
 
cudak888's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Southern Florida
Posts: 28,601

Bikes: https://www.theheadbadge.com

Liked 4,534 Times in 2,141 Posts
Originally Posted by camncars
The seat/down tube is 28.6 and the top tube is 25.4
Is there any other measurments I should do to heop identify it?
I am not famailar with bikes whatsoever, so please be clear if there are any terms used that you think I may not understand.
Thanks
The next step to narrowing down manufacturer would be to identify the bottom bracket threading. I'd suggest taking it to a shop and test-fitting one of all three (English / Italian / French) BB cups until you find one that works, but I must ask: Are you in the U.S. or international? Finding a bike shop competent enough to know what the different threadings are (read = that they don't try to screw in the wrong cup in the frame and bugger the threads) and having all three cups to test is chancy.

-Kurt
__________________












cudak888 is offline  
Old 07-10-12, 10:33 AM
  #13  
Decrepit Member
 
Scooper's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Santa Rosa, California
Posts: 10,488

Bikes: Waterford 953 RS-22, several Paramounts

Liked 71 Times in 59 Posts
Bottom bracket threading for the various standards is on the late Sheldon Brown's website:

https://sheldonbrown.com/cribsheet-bottombrackets.html

__________________
- Stan

my bikes

Science doesn't care what you believe.

Last edited by Scooper; 07-10-12 at 11:06 AM.
Scooper is offline  
Old 07-10-12, 09:59 PM
  #14  
Junior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 11
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
I am in the U.S.
Here are some measurments
top tube is about 23"
seat tube is about 23"
chainstay is about 17"
measurments are not exact though, but seem like I got them pretty close.
I'll try and get some pictures with a large ruler on each of the tubes to help see exact lengths and if I'm measuring from the exact correct locations
I talked with my friend and he remembers hearing that his father or grandfather had a few Paramont bikes, not sure if this could be one of them?? They did have many different kinds, just thought I'd throw that out there....
camncars is offline  
Old 07-10-12, 11:25 PM
  #15  
Decrepit Member
 
Scooper's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Santa Rosa, California
Posts: 10,488

Bikes: Waterford 953 RS-22, several Paramounts

Liked 71 Times in 59 Posts
A 23" frame size (seat tube length) is very popular, so that should make it easy to sell. The Nervex lugs and BB shell date the frame to somewhere between the mid-fifties when the Nervex Professional lugs first appeared and the late seventies when framebuilders switched to investment cast lugs which didn't require as much finish work. Schwinn Paramounts during that period used Nervex Professional lugs, but would almost certainly have had a serial number on the BB shell or on the left (non-driveside) rear track end and holes in the head tube for screws to mount the head badge.

Just for grins, here is the 1976 Paramount geometry.

__________________
- Stan

my bikes

Science doesn't care what you believe.
Scooper is offline  
Old 07-11-12, 11:00 AM
  #16  
Stop reading my posts!
 
unworthy1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 12,699
Liked 1,137 Times in 840 Posts
I'm guessing that it's British. It may have track ends (what those track "drop outs" are called) but obviously has had both front and rear brakes...since the rear bridge may have had that strange brake "slug" added on, the fork might not be original (since it's drilled for a brake and looks like more of a "road" fork).
The use of the Nervex Pro BB shell was a significant expense (practically doubled the cost) compared to using just the Nervex lugs/crown and another (cheaper) BB.
unworthy1 is offline  
Old 07-11-12, 12:28 PM
  #17  
Decrepit Member
 
Scooper's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Santa Rosa, California
Posts: 10,488

Bikes: Waterford 953 RS-22, several Paramounts

Liked 71 Times in 59 Posts
Originally Posted by unworthy1
I'm guessing that it's British. It may have track ends (what those track "drop outs" are called) but obviously has had both front and rear brakes...since the rear bridge may have had that strange brake "slug" added on, the fork might not be original (since it's drilled for a brake and looks like more of a "road" fork).
The use of the Nervex Pro BB shell was a significant expense (practically doubled the cost) compared to using just the Nervex lugs/crown and another (cheaper) BB.
I tend to agree with this.
__________________
- Stan

my bikes

Science doesn't care what you believe.
Scooper is offline  
Old 07-11-12, 10:22 PM
  #18  
Junior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 11
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Okay, I removed the fork from the frame and no numbers to be found on the fork. this is getting pretty bizzare!!! Is there any more close up pictures that I should take and post to further help the id of this frame/fork??? Both the frame and fork have the same paint overspray on it from years ago from a repaint or possibly factory paint, which looks like a dark red/maroon color. The family that it came from was big into bike racing from years back, I remember going to his grandfathers house and seeing several old bikes and some with wood rims from way back in time. A couple years back when my friend was cleaning out his grandfathers house, he came across a bunch of very old parts that he sold or gave away to a bike collector. This is one of the last parts left over. Not only am I seeking the value of this, but the history and talk about his grandfathers and fathers past in there bike history. I have seen some very old videos of them in the way, way past during their bike racing times.

Last edited by camncars; 07-11-12 at 10:23 PM. Reason: error
camncars is offline  
Old 07-11-12, 10:25 PM
  #19  
Junior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 11
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Also, not like this may matter, but the family this came from was from Chicago then Park Ridge, IL, and some of the racing was in Northbrook, IL track. U.S.A.
camncars is offline  
Old 07-11-12, 10:49 PM
  #20  
Junior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 11
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts







camncars is offline  
Old 07-11-12, 10:58 PM
  #21  
Decrepit Member
 
Scooper's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Santa Rosa, California
Posts: 10,488

Bikes: Waterford 953 RS-22, several Paramounts

Liked 71 Times in 59 Posts
Since you can't find a serial number, I'm inclined to think it's from a talented small framebuilder. Unless there's something more distinguishing about the frame than we've seen in the photos, it may remain the product of an anonymous builder.

As Kurt suggested above, the next step is to check the threading on the bottom bracket shell.

For reference, here's my 1940 track Paramount, s/n A853, with a 23" frame. The second photo is the measured geometry.



__________________
- Stan

my bikes

Science doesn't care what you believe.
Scooper is offline  
Old 07-11-12, 11:07 PM
  #22  
Decrepit Member
 
Scooper's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Santa Rosa, California
Posts: 10,488

Bikes: Waterford 953 RS-22, several Paramounts

Liked 71 Times in 59 Posts
Looking at your more detailed photos and with the knowledge that the family was from the Chicago area, there is a chance it was built by Oscar Wastyn (Emil Wastyn's son) of Chicago.

Emil built my 1940 Paramount for Schwinn.

A brief history of the Wastyns...
__________________
- Stan

my bikes

Science doesn't care what you believe.

Last edited by Scooper; 07-11-12 at 11:12 PM.
Scooper is offline  
Old 07-12-12, 05:02 AM
  #23  
Senior Member
 
jr59's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: the 904, Jax fl
Posts: 2,286
Liked 13 Times in 9 Posts
That is some pretty good work there, Stan. I had forgotten about Mr Wastyn. This frame has all the look of something he would have made.
jr59 is offline  
Old 07-12-12, 05:08 AM
  #24  
Senior Member
 
rootboy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Wherever
Posts: 16,748
Likes: 0
Liked 133 Times in 79 Posts
Very interesting frame. That rear brake bridge/boss should be tell-tale, but not for me. Really nice looking frame.
rootboy is offline  
Old 07-12-12, 06:13 AM
  #25  
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 35
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Wastyn's shop is still around and owned by either the son or grandson. There is a chance they might have some info on the frames he made.
catchabadone is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service - Your Privacy Choices -

Copyright © 2024 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.